RE: JW looking for clarity
April 17, 2015 at 6:17 pm
(This post was last modified: April 17, 2015 at 6:28 pm by Heywood.)
(April 17, 2015 at 11:26 am)Surgenator Wrote:(April 17, 2015 at 2:41 am)Heywood Wrote: The poster said, "as we know it". Why can't a being transcend our own time dimension? Maybe that being exists in a separate time dimension or two...or three....or four or an infinity of time dimensions. Let me see you use your puny 3 spatial 1 temporal dimensional brain contemplate a googolplex spatial and googol temporal dimensional being. Tell us what a being, if one exists, is like.
The statement is "god is outside of space and time" not "god is outside OUR space and time." Of course you can argue that god is not part of our universe, but exist in a larger universe. But that still requires it to be part of space and time, just not the same one we share.
As far as being part of multiple time dimensions, that seems painful. How would you feel if your toes aged faster than the rest of your foot?
I can't fathom what existing multiple time dimensions would be like from a human perspective. It is not logically impossible though and can be coherently describe with math. So it is certainly not out of the question or whimsical thinking.
I do believe in God but with that being said, I do find many theistic positions to be untenable. The position that God is outside of reality for instance. Intellect outside reality is nonsensical. Intelligence is about knowing, understanding, navigating, a reality. Intellect cannot exist outside a reality. God cannot exist outside a reality. However God can be outside our sub reality.
(April 17, 2015 at 3:51 am)Alex K Wrote: Ok, let's back up a little. Do we assume that time exists independent from the universe, sort of as a frame on which creation happens? If no, then the notion of energy does not exist without the universe and hence there is no argument. If yes, we can talk.
In general relativity, conservation laws of any kind pertaining to particles are related to symmetries, e.g of spacetime, and conservation of energy is violated in nature because spacetime is not static - just think
of cosmological red shift, which steals energy from photons. Now, the curvature of spacetime can be assigned energy in order to compensate, and in fact in our current universe, it contains negative energy in this picture. The total energy of this universe can be zero, so it could even be created without violating energy conservation. In absence of space but in the presence of time, who knows though, what contributions to energy there are - our current notion of conserved energy breaks down in absence of space.
If God is everywhere as many theists claim then there must be space. Our observations tell us there is space. Claiming that conserved energy breaks down in absence of space doesn't further your refutation because it obvious that space isn't absent.
In order for your refutation to work, it seems like you have to invent facts or contrive situations which while are logically possible.....we have no reason whatsoever to believe they are actualities.
