Jaysus effin' Christ!! Santorum on abortion due to rape

[Zen Badger]

For what it's worth I'm pro-choice, it is afterall the womans body.

However, I don't think it should be allowed after the third trimester unless for medical reasons.

If you can't make a decision in six months......

See, thats the nice thing about supporting abortion all the way up to birth. You leave the decision and the risks to the pregnant woman with her doctor telling her the risks she will take depending on the time frame.

If you wish to legislate it, then why not also legislate against other risky surgeries and procedures, like a triple bypass has a high chance of being fatal to the person receiving it, so therefore you should also ban such a procedure for medical reasons as well..

...or is it REALLY not about the risks involved and more about something else to you?

Let me expand upon my original post so that there is no confusion.

If upon finding that she is pregnant for whatever reason, rape, incest or even just as a result of casual unprotected sex then it is that persons indisputable right to terminate that pregancy. How can it not be?

But if she then carries that foetus for six months what other reason than medical can there be for terminating it?

BTW I don't see the correlation between between late term abortion and a triple bypass.

[reverendjeremiah]

Let me expand upon my original post so that there is no confusion.

Uh oh...too much expansion and my head may explode. I know, Honey Badger dont give a fuck...He'll eat it anyways,

If upon finding that she is pregnant for whatever reason, rape, incest or even just as a result of casual unprotected sex then it is that persons indisputable right to terminate that pregancy. How can it not be?

First - I would shy away from saying the word "right", as it is very difficult to seperate it from the word "opinion".
Second - I would also shy away from putting the modifier of "indisputable" next to the questionable word of "right" or "rights". Opinions are formed and legislated as "rights". If they can be taken away, then they arent "rights", as such a mixture of terms would suggest they are inherent and universally accepted.
I argue that the person who owns the womb, who sustains the womb with their own lifes blood, and has it as part of their personal and physical constitution can do with it as they deem fit. Just the same as I argue that a person should be allowed to keep or dispose of their ability to conceive as they see fit. Of course this can be legislated against, as just about anything you can imagine can be legislated for or against. An example would be the Eugenics programs that forced mentally inferior citizens to be sterilized. I never said that this would be an easy discussion.

But if she then carries that foetus for six months what other reason than medical can there be for terminating it?

A reason you may not agree with, or may not have expected. Perhaps she lost her job. Perhaps she decided simply that she was wrong in thinking that she wanted a baby. Any reason SHE deems to be reasonable to her at the moment she makes her choice to terminate.

Look at your question. I can easily reword it as; "Why would a woman terminate her pregnancy after 6 months if it was healthy? I wouldnt do it." The issue can go beyond the health of the baby. There are a multitude of reasons that can be brought forth for such a decision. Must we include the courts to "verify" if a personal decision to do with ones own body is "okay"?

Think of the pandoras box opened by legislating a pregnancy. Well, if she cant have an abortion after 6 months for the "its a healthy baby" argument, then why not legislate what she can eat? It is, after all, a new citizen she is forming in her womb. Let us legislate the proper nutrition she must have. What gets me, and I am not saying you are ANYTHING like this, but what gets me is that these pro-life people raise hell about abortion, yet at the same time wish to get rid of welfare and foodstamps, and WIC, etc.. They dont mind you being dirt poor as shit, working 2 jobs and still not getting by, dumping the entire cost of a pregnancy on the mother, but if she decides she cannot abide her pregnancy suddenly its all about "oh, the poor innocent baby! You are a murderer!" Yet all the time they support the rich/poor system, and they support the idea of the kid being just another slum resident, and would even say "yup, more worthless redneck babies", or ""Another nigger baby to rob the liquor store." and so on, and so on...

Im trying to shut pandoras box.

BTW I don't see the correlation between between late term abortion and a triple bypass.

I looked back and realized I was a bit off on my last post. Sorry about that...although it did have a good point. Sadly, it was unrelated to what you posted.

[Erinome]

Too bad they can't transfer the fetus into the man. Ever carried a baby to term?

The drama team can stop acting like I said anyone should be forced to do anything and read it the way it was written -- father's rights should have some consideration.

Deflection is cheap.

Now, my ever carrying a baby to term is irrelevent.

Of course it is.

I don't need a list of potential side effects. I'm a 29-year-old women with five sisters, nine nieces and nephews and a midwife for a sister. I understand you consider yourself an expert on the topic and you certainly know something of it. However, I'm talking about opinions on parent's rights, not forcing people to carry babies.

I consider myself an expert on the topic of women's reproductive rights. There is a reason the father has no rights to an unborn, and isn't even given the luxury of any sort of discussion about the fate of a fetus. The main reason is there is no way to prove the paternity of the fetus before 10 weeks, and even that requires a pretty risky procedure called an amniocentesis. There are risks to both mother and fetus with that, as well. I've had one of them done, for a different reason, and it was not pleasant.

The father can have an opinion all he wants, but it doesn't matter because it's not his body.

Furthermore, those are potential side effects. Many women carry babies with no permanent damage. Both of my grandmothers had ten children and one died of an aneurism and the other of cancer. Both died as old women. Hmmmm . . .

So because they're just potential side effects it's no big deal? No such thing as a woman who carries a baby to term and doesn't suffer permanent damage. I don't know what kind of dream world you're living in, but every woman has, at the very least her hips displaced from their natural position. They never go back. Might not seem like a big deal to such an easy going person, like yourself, but some women are very bothered by that. I can also assure you that pushing out a baby you didn't want because the father wants it does , and will cause permanent damage.

This is all irrelevant. When I say, make little girls carry babies to term against their will, you can educate me on the ills of that. The bottom line is that I never said women should be "forced" to carry to term. I certainly never said girls should.

It's a slippery slope from allowing fathers to be in on the "discussion", and forcing women to adhere to their stated wishes in those discussions.

Yeah, because I said all of that. Give it a rest for fuck's sake.

Why are you being a bitch? I was trying to explain to you why men don't get a say on the matter. If you think the majority of those sperm donors aren't pieces of shit, you're jaded beyond belief. I know you're married to your poorly informed opinion, but I was trying to shed some light from an insider's point-of-view. Excuse the fucking hell outta me.

To paraphrase what I said, if a man wants to keep the kid and is willing to let the mother sign over parents rights and not help . . . there should be some discussion.

And I told you why that was a load of stinking bullshit. If he's willing to be so wonderfully kind as to allow her to sign over her rights because he wants to keep the child??? Oh that makes it sooo much better! If she is willing to do that, then it's all good, but you're still not getting the point, obviously. That statement is actually pretty gross. If I didn't know better, I would think you were a male chauvinist, like mehmet or something.

If she isn't ready to have a child, she can give it to the father.

What part of she doesn't want to be pregnant and have the baby don't you get? When men can get pregnant, they can make their own decisions about what happens to their body.

I realize it is a pet habit for extremist to go, "Holy fuck! You're a woman and you want 12-year-olds to carry rapist's babies!" and other such nonsense. However, I am relatively certain you have the mental capacity to realize that is not at all what I said, Alei.

An extremist? I didn't say you said you want 12 year olds to carry their rapist's babies. I said it was a stupid fucking idea to allow the fathers of fetuses to make decisions about someone else's body. It is a stupid, stupid idea. He may be free to express his opinion, but he doesn't, and shouldn't have any right to enforce it. Whether it be that she wants to keep the baby, or abort it. He has no official say for reasons.

Also, you are presenting all men as ball scratching beer drinkers. Yeah, I'm relatively certain that is not what my father did when I was born.

Nope. What I was saying is that men don't have to do a damn thing to become a father. I was saying that men don't have a say because it's the woman who has to endure the physical traumas associated with pregnancy. He can drink beer. Not that he would drink beer. She can't, but what if she did? What a horrible person that bitch would be. She's an alcoholic who doesn't want to stop drinking, so she wants to have an abortion, but the father wants the baby. Does he want a baby with fetal alcohol syndrome? Should we allow him to decide if she gets to drink alcohol or not too? Should we even allow him in on the discussion? Fuck no. It's not his body. He doesn't have to change his entire life when he doesn't want to, and neither should a woman, just because he's sentimental.

Yeah, because that is how it always goes down. What is it with people on the extreme ends of this debate? They could have agreed to get pregnant and then she flakes. Has that never happened where you work or is only just Christian teen mothers and girls whose boyfriends sat outside scratching their balls and getting drunk while their girlfriend had an abortion? They're all victims? Bullshit!

That was ignorant. Even if she agrees to get pregnant, and then flakes, that is still her right. And no, that's never happened. Some of them are Muslim, some are hookers, some are rape victims, some are 30 year old women who just don't want to be a mother, and had an accident. I don't care if the father is a fucking saint, his opinion is irrelevant for the many, many reasons I stated above. I am presenting you with the truth when I say that most of the girls getting abortions are Christian teens. That means the majority. Not all. Those girls are victims of poor sexual education, and if you don't want to acknowledge that, it's your problem. Some people like to be enlightened, some people value being right over accepting the truth.

And . . . again . . . I have never said women should be forced to carry a baby. I am saying there should be an option for her to sign over parental rights to the father at birth to make it possible for a man to get full custody of a baby a mom does not want right at birth. I know, it's so evil of me.

---

Mothers do have the right to sign over parental rights to the father if they don't want the baby. And like I said, it's a slippery slope.

Oh, and this demands comment. The fruits of a woman's womb for whatever reason? What are you a uterine supremacist? You need sperm too. And . . . how about so he can have his child? Whatever reason? Seriously. I don't want to speculate, but I can only assume your dad isn't the cat's meow. I just can't understand why you would minimize a father's role in a child's life so much. It baffles me. My dad is the fucking man.

A uterine supremacist? No, sweetheart, I'm not. I'm a compassionate person who talks to women in crisis for a living. Him having his child is not important if the woman doesn't want to go through the intensive invasion of her body so he can have a baby and be a daddy. You're really cold about this whole thing, and you don't know what it feels like to be 8 months pregnant when you don't want to be. I do. So if you think that I am standing up for women, you're damn right I am. You don't have my permission to make me feel like shit about that. You might have sisters who've gone through it, and a midwife whatever, but until you go through it, you can't really know.

Some people don't even have to go through it because they have empathy. If you had empathy, none of this garbage could come out of your mouth.

Asking me about my father? Fuck you. The only daddy I ever had tied me up to chairs and urinated on me. He was good to the kids that were made from his sperm. I'm so glad you have a swell father, but I don't know if you've noticed or not, from inside your bubble, but there is an epidemic in this country of absent/shitty fathers. To act like I could only understand a father's plight just because I don't have a father is pretty fucking rich coming from someone who has shown literally no empathy for what women have to go through during and after pregnancy.

[Cosmic Ape]

I'm a man but I completely agree with aleialoura here, as far as I'm concerned, daddy can go fuck himself. Daddy was the one who has been making misogynistic laws through religion and whenever I see a woman trying to put men ahead of women or say that a man should encroach the choices of a woman, I get angry and annoyed. But mostly angry that most of those women dont know how hard of a journey their gender had to getting any sort of equality or even getting the fuckin burka off their faces, let alone not honor raping little girls anymore, something that most people were okay with. Trying to give the man the rights over the fetus is one of religions last hopes for destroying reproductive rights and trying to get women to breed as many kids on welfare as they can, because they love and respect the fetus in the womb but once its out of the womb its a big "fuck you kid, get a fuckin helmet and a job"

[KichigaiNeko]

I am thinking that no matter what you males like to legislate religiously or not women are going to be the ones to say if they will carry your sperm to term or not.

[Cosmic Ape]

lol its just hilarious that these men (if you can call them men) will say that they deserve a say about the fetus when almost every female species on this planet is selective about who she not only lets breed with her but ultimately if one of those males she slept with has the best chance of getting her pregnant, like pickyness, more sex with certain males, time between sex etc.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Too bad they can't transfer the fetus into the man. Ever carried a baby to term?

Ever had 6 year less life expectancy? Ever been beaten up? Ever been expected to be away from your loved ones everyday in order to bring in the bacon? Ever had to deal with a spouse with PMS? Etc. etc.

You have the choice to have a baby, or work, or even both! Men never do!

If you don't like being a woman, tough shit, lady! Stop whining. You gotta play the hand you're dealt.

[Cosmic Ape]

Too bad they can't transfer the fetus into the man. Ever carried a baby to term?

Ever had 6 year less life expectancy? Ever been beaten up? Ever been expected to be away from your loved ones everyday in order to bring in the bacon? Ever had to deal with a spouse with PMS? Etc. etc.

You have the choice to have a baby, or work, or even both! Men never do!

If you don't like being a woman, tough shit, lady! Stop whining. You gotta play the hand you're dealt.

Where are the negative kudos for this post... That's completely asinine because women don't have to play a certain hand, thats a very deeply indoctrinated type of misogyny to postulate, she made a very good point and you shift it to fit your religious beliefs. They in fact can choose not to have kids at all or they can have abortions. Not to mention in the near future, live birth will be obsolete and we dont need it to breed that way. There have been roughly 100 billion humans in our species history and nearly 50 billion of them were children under 10, including 20 billion dead babies, that shows a very bad and ineffective way to reproduce, and thats perfect according to theists? 20 billion dead babies? wow. And in this future, every child will be born with DNA and a home pregnancy kit or in a lab, the effective way to breed.

[Shell B]

Deflection is cheap.

What does that even mean, alei? What am I deflecting? It helps your argument if I think women should be forced to carry a baby. Since that is never what I said, I could say strawmen are cheap.

Of course it is.

Yeah, it is irrelevant. You want to bring up the fact that I have never carried a baby as if it is some sort of defect in my personality. It just so happens that I have raised a child for most of his life instead of a woman who is perfectly capable of having children, just not capable of raising them. Guess what my ex-husband did? He raised his son without the help of his biological mother. He must of have had devious reasons, right? No father could just want to have their kid?

I consider myself an expert on the topic of women's reproductive rights.

The problem with this is that there are very few of what you would call "reproductive rights." There are plenty of parental rights, though.

There is a reason the father has no rights to an unborn, and isn't even given the luxury of any sort of discussion about the fate of a fetus.

By law. In a healthy relationship, he is given discussion. I never had a pregnancy scare where I didn't ask the potential father what he would want to do, should I be pregnant.

The main reason is there is no way to prove the paternity of the fetus before 10 weeks, and even that requires a pretty risky procedure called an amniocentesis.

Now you are venturing into the world of proving who the father is. When I say, "Regardless of whether the two parties know if the man is the father, they should talk about the fate of the fetus." this will be relevant.

There are risks to both mother and fetus with that, as well. I've had one of them done, for a different reason, and it was not pleasant.

This isn't a cornfield.

The father can have an opinion all he wants, but it doesn't matter because it's not his body.

Haha, so when a woman expects a man to work the rest of his life for a child he wanted aborted, that's okay. It's his body too. Do you realize that stress causes more disease than childbirth? The stress on his body from working harder to pay exorbitant child support is beyond consideration, but . . .

So because they're just potential side effects it's no big deal?

Yep. I said that. Listen, you can't throw out a fucking textbook full of "side effects" and present them as what happens to a woman when she has a baby when a number of those are as rare as having a baby with two heads.

No such thing as a woman who carries a baby to term and doesn't suffer permanent damage.

Sure . . .

I don't know what kind of dream world you're living in, but every woman has, at the very least her hips displaced from their natural position. They never go back.

That is natural! Women are made to do just that. Furthermore, that is not true. A woman's hips naturally open up with absolutely no harm done, assuming she has a good delivery.

I can also assure you that pushing out a baby you didn't want because the father wants it does , and will cause permanent damage.

This is where there is a disconnect, alei. A woman using sound logic will realize she is not keeping the baby. She can have the baby and go about her business. A number of women do this already. It is called adoption. They don't want to have abortions, so they have the baby and give it up. An abortion is traumatic too, so perhaps this is not the best argument.

It's a slippery slope from allowing fathers to be in on the "discussion", and forcing women to adhere to their stated wishes in those discussions.

No it isn't. There is a huge difference between a woman having to consider the feelings of the father and a woman being forced to have a baby.

Why are you being a bitch?

Alei, you are bombarding me with straw men and seriously fucked up biases on human males. I can't help if you do not like my opinion. However, I don't live in a world where all men are penis-slinging drunks who get women knocked up and bail.

I was trying to explain to you why men don't get a say on the matter. If you think the majority of those sperm donors aren't pieces of shit, you're jaded beyond belief.

I don't know where you live, but I have to assume it's the armpit of child-rearing at this point.

I know you're married to your poorly informed opinion, but I was trying to shed some light from an insider's point-of-view. Excuse the fucking hell outta me.

Again, strawmen don't help. You can relax. Just because my opinion doesn't suit the world of Christian babies being forced to abort by their parents and sperm donor boyfriends that you live in, does not mean my opinion is poorly formed. You ever stop to think about the fact that most of those "girls" (because they're all girls, right?) have boyfriends that do not want the child? Yeah, I'm talking about ones that do want the child. As rare as that might be, it bears consideration. Your experience is not in talking with fathers. My experience is raising a child with a damn good one, being raised by a damn good one, both of whom would have deserved a say.

And I told you why that was a load of stinking bullshit.

Yeah, but you backed it up with an army of strawmen and irrelevant arguments. We're talking about dads who want their kids.

If he's willing to be so wonderfully kind as to allow her to sign over her rights because he wants to keep the child??? Oh that makes it sooo much better!

Actually, that is wonderfully kind. Don't you think it is pretty great that someone else is raising your kid for you? You didn't have to have an abortion because someone else was nice enough to take up the slack that you couldn't handle. I have done that myself, so I know there is more sacrifice in giving your entire life to a child that is not yours than there is in having some hours of pain and stretch marks that might make you feel bad. Disclaimer: I think you did the right thing. That's not an insult, but merely a light being shown on the kind act that is raising a child someone else did not want.

If she is willing to do that, then it's all good, but you're still not getting the point, obviously.

It's not that I don't get the points you're making. It is that you are making points that have nothing to do with my argument. My initial statement was that I never heard Adrian be "pro-life." I have heard him be pro father's rights. I'm not pro-life, but you are coming at me like I am.

That statement is actually pretty gross. If I didn't know better, I would think you were a male chauvinist, like mehmet or something.

Oh, goody. More histrionics. You mean the statement that I didn't make? The one that you are playing out this argument pretending I had? That statement? Yeah, it tastes pretty gross when you put it in my mouth.

What part of she doesn't want to be pregnant and have the baby don't you get?

Wait, we're talking about a specific person? Yeah, alei, you can't speak for every pregnant woman and you can't pigeonhole my argument to suit one brand of pregnant woman. Again, some women do have babies and give them up for adoption. If she is aborting it because she cannot afford it, we have a different debate, don't we?

When men can get pregnant, they can make their own decisions about what happens to their body.

Until then, they shouldn't have to pay for children they don't want? It's their body that has to bust ass forever.

An extremist? I didn't say you said you want 12 year olds to carry their rapist's babies. I said it was a stupid fucking idea to allow the fathers of fetuses to make decisions about someone else's body. It is a stupid, stupid idea.

Then why have couples been doing just that for longer than either of us have been alive? He's not making a decision about what she does with her body. He is giving her another option. What about that is distasteful? You would prefer a woman to get an abortion than deliver a baby into a loving family?

He may be free to express his opinion, but he doesn't, and shouldn't have any right to enforce it. Whether it be that she wants to keep the baby, or abort it. He has no official say for reasons.

Yep, and when she decides to have the baby he doesn't want, he gets fucked for life. Sounds fair.

Nope. What I was saying is that men don't have to do a damn thing to become a father.

That's malarkey. It takes two to conceive. When my mother was pregnant, my father supported her, made sure she had insurance, got her to her appointments, etc. You can bet if he didn't, she wouldn't have had much to do with him.

I was saying that men don't have a say because it's the woman who has to endure the physical traumas associated with pregnancy.

Men do have a say in healthy scenarios. It happens all the time. A couple decides to have a baby. A fucking couple.

He can drink beer. Not that he would drink beer. She can't, but what if she did? What a horrible person that bitch would be.

Actually, yeah. Anyway, that is not what you said. You painted all men as beer-swilling, ball-scratching neanderthals and acted as if a uterus is the key to brains and goodness.

She's an alcoholic who doesn't want to stop drinking, so she wants to have an abortion, but the father wants the baby. Does he want a baby with fetal alcohol syndrome?

More nonsense.

He doesn't have to change his entire life when he doesn't want to, and neither should a woman, just because he's sentimental.

When a woman wants a baby, she's strong and independent. When a man wants one, he is sentimental. Alei, you have gotten a little lopsided here. I'm for equal rights. Equal. You have approached every scenario where a man would want his child with disdain.

That was ignorant.

Alei, cut the shit. I'm not ignorant. Just because I don't have a bunch of kids, work with strippers, work in an abortion clinic and whatever the hell else you do that makes you an expert on unwanted pregnancies, does not make me ignorant. I helped my 15-year-old sister take care of her son when I was 12/13 so she could go to school. There is another side to your coin. You know what happened? Someone adopted my nephew and married my sister. Even though they are now divorced, he still takes care of that child. You know what that sister went to school for? Delivering babies. You may know a lot about aborting them, but I know a hell of a lot about the risks of giving birth. I've been around for a few labors. Perhaps you need to spend some time on the other side of this discussion to see my point of view. There is no need for you call ignorance.

Even if she agrees to get pregnant, and then flakes, that is still her right. And no, that's never happened. Some of them are Muslim, some are hookers, some are rape victims, some are 30 year old women who just don't want to be a mother, and had an accident. I don't care if the father is a fucking saint, his opinion is irrelevant for the many, many reasons I stated above.

None of which actually show why he is not entitled to his opinion and a good acceptance of it. You have thrown out scenarios that fit a fraction of pregnancies and parenting situations. You have thrown out strawmen, but you have not once told me why a woman who does not fear pregnancy, but does not want a child, should not carry the child for a man who does want it. Since that is what I am arguing, I find it interesting that we have got this far without you managing to address that even once.

Some people like to be enlightened, some people value being right over accepting the truth.

I live in New England, alei. It's like another country. It might be the truth for you that most mothers are little Christian girls with tyrants for parents and baby daddies that scratch their nuts and drink beer all the time, but that is not the case here. Perhaps you need to realize that what is true in one pocket of east bumfuck is not the truth everywhere. I'm talking about a very specific scenario. It doesn't matter if you have never personally witnessed it. You have presumably never seen the Taj Mahal. Does that mean we should dismiss it and let it fall apart? Should we never consider such a thing existing and needing consideration? "Well, it ain't Christian and beer-swilling, hurf-durf, so it must ain't be real." It doesn't work that way. The funny thing is, I have strongly considered all of the scenarios you put forth long before you came around. I've held an opinion on abortion for a pretty long fucking time. I don't disagree with you on any of the things you set forth. I disagree with you on one that you have failed to consider. If you took a deep breath and realized what I actually said, we wouldn't have wasted all of this time with these "pregnancy scenario one-ups" and condescending questioning on the vacancy of my uterus.

Mothers do have the right to sign over parental rights to the father if they don't want the baby. And like I said, it's a slippery slope.

No, they don't. It is not that easy at all. It takes mountains of paperwork and at least three visits to court. Slippery slope, my ass.

A uterine supremacist? No, sweetheart, I'm not. I'm a compassionate person who talks to women in crisis for a living.

Partially compassionate, alei. You have shown not one ounce of compassion in this thread for men who want their children. It's not your fault. It is the way everyone is. Dads are "sperm donors" and moms are "victims."

You're really cold about this whole thing, and you don't know what it feels like to be 8 months pregnant when you don't want to be. I do. So if you think that I am standing up for women, you're damn right I am. You don't have my permission to make me feel like shit about that. You might have sisters who've gone through it, and a midwife whatever, but until you go through it, you can't really know.

Yeah, I didn't get knocked up with a baby I didn't want. I know how to use a condom. Sorry if I don't think managing to get pregnant when even a caveman could do it makes you fucking special. I've lived my life responsibly. Excuse the fuck out of me for not feeling pity for those who don't. I didn't try to make you feel like shit about anything. If you felt that way reading anything I said, that says more about you than me. I'll keep standing up for dads who give a shit and stop wasting my pity on women who can't figure out how to use birth control and men who don't want to use condoms. In my world, where my opinion comes from, the only people who fall into the category where such discussion would be relevant are responsible adults. You clearly don't have much experience in that department.

Some people don't even have to go through it because they have empathy. If you had empathy, none of this garbage could come out of your mouth.

Cry me a river, alei.

Asking me about my father? Fuck you. The only daddy I ever had tied me up to chairs and urinated on me. He was good to the kids that were made from his sperm.

That's hardly my fault, alei. It explains a hell of a lot about this conversation, though.

I'm so glad you have a swell father, but I don't know if you've noticed or not, from inside your bubble, but there is an epidemic in this country of absent/shitty fathers.

Haha, my bubble. Alei, you know fuck all about me. I mean, literally nothing. You also appear to know jack shit about what I am actually arguing. There could be a fucking epidemic of rape abortions and it would have absolutely jack shit to do with my argument. As long as there is one healthy woman who wouldn't mind carrying a baby to term if given the option that he be raised with a father and father who is willing to do so, my argument stands. It doesn't matter whats going on in Kentucky or wherever the fuck you're from.

To act like I could only understand a father's plight just because I don't have a father is pretty fucking rich coming from someone who has shown literally no empathy for what women have to go through during and after pregnancy.

I never said that, alei. You need to try arguing from a place of logic here. I had no clue you didn't have a dad, so how the fuck could I have insulted you for it. As for empathy for women who are pregnant, you are putting words in my mouth again. Not only is this a little alei dramafest, it is a ridiculous scapegoating. I have not fucking said any of the things you attribute to me. Yeah, fuck me. Fuck me until you can grow the fuck up and debate like a big girl.

[Erinome]

Too bad they can't transfer the fetus into the man. Ever carried a baby to term?

Ever had 6 year less life expectancy?

I've had doctors come in my hospital room and tell me I had a blood infection from a c-section, and give me 20% odds. Try that 2 weeks after you've had your first baby.

Ever been beaten up?

Recently. By a man. Thanks for reminding me.

Ever been expected to be away from your loved ones everyday in order to bring in the bacon?

I'm a single mom. I barely get to see my kids most days.

Ever had to deal with a spouse with PMS? Etc. etc.

I've had to deal with PMS, and actually having a period every month. I don't get to go on a drive or something to get away from that.

You have the choice to have a baby, or work, or even both! Men never do!

I do have a choice to have a baby, and because I have babies, I have no choice but to work. Why would I have a choice to work or not? I've always had to work, even before I chose to have my own kids because I was taking care of my mother's children. See me whining about that?

If you don't like being a woman, tough shit, lady! Stop whining. You gotta play the hand you're dealt.

I do like being a woman. I am playing the hand I'm dealt. In fact I love being a woman. Where are you getting these crazy ideas?