A message to Islam

[Brian37]

To any Muslim who may read this, or any arab of any religious label, or former Muslim, please respond in this post. Now before you read this please keep in mind that I will always support anyone's right to protest in non violent ways. I support freedom of religion, not as claims, but as a human right all goverments should protect.

By now the world knows about the Ambassador in Lybia being murdered, along with other Americans and 14 Muslims protecting them, and not even over a film they made, but right wing nutcase Christian here in the states.

To those who use violent protest what do you hope to acchieve , because I can tell you the west wont suddenly bow to voilence. It only surves to fan the flames of stereotypes and fear which becomes a vicious cycle of us vs them.

In the west our pluralistic socieity has learned to live without violence, with hearing and seeing offensive things. Christians and Jews see things like "The Piss Crist" and Jews have been accused of monopolies of media and was even feared by President Nixion. As an Atheist I have been equated to Hitler and Stalin and being immoral merely for not believing in any god.

No one likes to have their beliefs picked on. But what is better for humanity? Getting violent when we hear or see things we don't like? I see that as doing nothing but causing more division and fear and death. The Middle East is still way behind the west in tollerance and causes needless casims because of "honor".

I can promise without a doubt that things can get better for all parties involved when we allow offensive speech and demand any response to that offensive speech be strictly non violent. If the East wants the west to back off, I promise we are more than willing to, but not out of fear and not out of submission. We will only back off when the east gets to the same point of pluralism and protection of dissent. Part of freedom is sometimes hearing things you don't like.

A little look at American history and even the history of Christianty should show that Christianity once behaived as violently as some in Islam. It was only the idea of secularism and the common law of free speech and a ban on violence or calls to violence, that we learned to live peacefully. Christianity and europe and eventually the colonies escaped the tribalism over time.

But you need to face facts, and even some Christians and Jews do to. There are no labels and borders, or politics, or religions, in evolution. The fact is there is only ONE PLANET we all live on. There are 7 billion of us and to use violence to demand people never offend you, is nothing short of childish schoolyard bullying.

No one here is asking you to like the film that lead to this. No one here is asking you not to protest the film. All the west wants is for Muslims to stop killing people over merely being offended. We promise it CAN and will get better when you simply stick to using your voices and stop using weapons.

I've seen Muslims burn flags, fine, but stick to that. How is murdering another fellow human going to make that dead person's family want to listen to you?

The west does, outside of government and politics, but as individuals, wants to live in a peaceful world. I'd suggest you stop using your religion as a weapon, and if one is to respond to offensive things, respond to that individual who offended you, not with violence, but with your voice.

The days of conqest are over. The world is too small and there is no room for anyone on any side to create some asbolute power over the other. You only serve to cause more violence and death. If you say you want peace, the power is in your hands and CAN be accheaved quite easly by denouncing all violent protest.

George Washington was once asked in a letter what religion he wanted his contracter to be to build Mt Vernon. His response was basically "I don't care" and they could be anything including a Muslim as long as they did a good job.

He and the rest of the founders handed America something the world had not seen to that degree before. The concept that what we have in common is greater than our differences.

And Jefferson in response to the issue of "respect" and "honor" of politicians Adams had written to him, Adams was appauled at the treatment of all polticians. Jefferson in much more eloquent words than I am conveying here basically responded to him "That is the price you pay for living in a free society, sometimes you are going to hear things that offend you".

If any Muslim reading this thinks it is impractical to end Islam by force, I agree. But just as impractical for any political or religious label, is to use violence to protest. I was horrified to hear that a Sikh right after 9/11 was murdered and mistaken for a Muslim. I was horrified by the carpet bombing of Lebenon that killed both Muslims and Arab Christians.

While true, no matter what boarders Muslims or Christians or Jews or anyone, can stop fully the responses our governments have to the "enemy", we can as individuals, see ourselves as such, despite what our governments do. I can and will reach out to any human, even if what that human claims, I may find absurd, who values the voice and allows for others the same right to complain or criticise others.

It is my hope for the east that violence is replaced with non violent protest. It is my hope that the Muslim and Christian and Jew worldwide have a planet where non violence is the social norm.

Words, even when they offend us, do not have to lead to murder. When someone offends me, and they have, I simply respond with words only, or I simply walk away from the situation. I have no doubt that if more Muslims in the world did that, rather than use violence, things will get better worldwide.

We are humans first. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, Chinese, Mexicans, and every mountan, and vally, every big city and rual farm, is occupied by people with families, and loved ones. Full of sons, fathers, mothers daughters, sisters and brothers. I think it serves humaity far better to tollerate offensive speech, in order to protect our desire to be free from physical violence. No point in human history has there been a time when one party or one person or one individual didn't say something that offended someone else.

I promise peace can be accheived, but violent protest has not worked and will not work. It didn't bring peace to Ireland. It was only after decades of murder on both sides, that both got tired of it. It doesn't impress me as a pro choice advocate when a Christian murders and abortion doctor. And Muslim violence wont impress me either.

But it is way past time we all realize that the COMMON GROUND we all have is that we are all humans and all humans don't like being physically harmed. If Islam wants to prove to the west it is above voilence, they have the power to lead by example. If the worst any human has to suffer is being offended, it is a far better proposition than the finality of death no one wants.




So to any Muslim reading this, please respond and explain what you think your are gaining by supporting violent protest?

[frankiej]

So to any Muslim reading this, please respond and explain what you think your are gaining by supporting violent protest?

Any Muslim responding to this probably has nothing to do with this violence and probably don't support it... you do realise that don't you?

[Brian37]

So to any Muslim reading this, please respond and explain what you think your are gaining by supporting violent protest?

Any Muslim responding to this probably has nothing to do with this violence and probably don't support it... you do realise that don't you?

That is the point, to allow those Muslims who may have sympathy for the people who commited the murders, to see that other Muslims don't. I hope that this does get responses from Muslims who support non violence and free speech.

Lybians espcially after freeing them from a dictator, have members of their society that murdered even Muslims along with those Americans. I just simply cannot understand how you can rightfully fight for your own political and religious and economic freedom, and then hypocritically use violence to demand the same taboos Gadaffi trannically used to silence dissent of his state and his state religion.

I want to hear from Muslims who value free speech, including dissent and blasphemy. I will stand proudly with those Muslims, again, not that I think they need their religion, but strictly as a human rights issue in our common humanity that no one likes to be physically harmed.

I think the more in Islam who adapt tollernce and the right to offend and non violent protest, things will get better for them.

[Anomalocaris]

Shouldn't it be "Message to muslims" rather than "Message to Islam"?

[greneknight]

To any Muslim who may read this, or any arab of any religious label, or former Muslim, please respond in this post. Now before you read this please keep in mind that I will always support anyone's right to protest in non violent ways. I support freedom of religion, not as claims, but as a human right all goverments should protect.

By now the world knows about the Ambassador in Lybia being murdered, along with other Americans and 14 Muslims protecting them, and not even over a film they made, but right wing nutcase Christian here in the states.

To those who use violent protest what do you hope to acchieve , because I can tell you the west wont suddenly bow to voilence. It only surves to fan the flames of stereotypes and fear which becomes a vicious cycle of us vs them.

In the west our pluralistic socieity has learned to live without violence, with hearing and seeing offensive things. Christians and Jews see things like "The Piss Crist" and Jews have been accused of monopolies of media and was even feared by President Nixion. As an Atheist I have been equated to Hitler and Stalin and being immoral merely for not believing in any god.

No one likes to have their beliefs picked on. But what is better for humanity? Getting violent when we hear or see things we don't like? I see that as doing nothing but causing more division and fear and death. The Middle East is still way behind the west in tollerance and causes needless casims because of "honor".

I can promise without a doubt that things can get better for all parties involved when we allow offensive speech and demand any response to that offensive speech be strictly non violent. If the East wants the west to back off, I promise we are more than willing to, but not out of fear and not out of submission. We will only back off when the east gets to the same point of pluralism and protection of dissent. Part of freedom is sometimes hearing things you don't like.

A little look at American history and even the history of Christianty should show that Christianity once behaived as violently as some in Islam. It was only the idea of secularism and the common law of free speech and a ban on violence or calls to violence, that we learned to live peacefully. Christianity and europe and eventually the colonies escaped the tribalism over time.

But you need to face facts, and even some Christians and Jews do to. There are no labels and borders, or politics, or religions, in evolution. The fact is there is only ONE PLANET we all live on. There are 7 billion of us and to use violence to demand people never offend you, is nothing short of childish schoolyard bullying.

No one here is asking you to like the film that lead to this. No one here is asking you not to protest the film. All the west wants is for Muslims to stop killing people over merely being offended. We promise it CAN and will get better when you simply stick to using your voices and stop using weapons.

I've seen Muslims burn flags, fine, but stick to that. How is murdering another fellow human going to make that dead person's family want to listen to you?

The west does, outside of government and politics, but as individuals, wants to live in a peaceful world. I'd suggest you stop using your religion as a weapon, and if one is to respond to offensive things, respond to that individual who offended you, not with violence, but with your voice.

The days of conqest are over. The world is too small and there is no room for anyone on any side to create some asbolute power over the other. You only serve to cause more violence and death. If you say you want peace, the power is in your hands and CAN be accheaved quite easly by denouncing all violent protest.

George Washington was once asked in a letter what religion he wanted his contracter to be to build Mt Vernon. His response was basically "I don't care" and they could be anything including a Muslim as long as they did a good job.

He and the rest of the founders handed America something the world had not seen to that degree before. The concept that what we have in common is greater than our differences.

And Jefferson in response to the issue of "respect" and "honor" of politicians Adams had written to him, Adams was appauled at the treatment of all polticians. Jefferson in much more eloquent words than I am conveying here basically responded to him "That is the price you pay for living in a free society, sometimes you are going to hear things that offend you".

If any Muslim reading this thinks it is impractical to end Islam by force, I agree. But just as impractical for any political or religious label, is to use violence to protest. I was horrified to hear that a Sikh right after 9/11 was murdered and mistaken for a Muslim. I was horrified by the carpet bombing of Lebenon that killed both Muslims and Arab Christians.

While true, no matter what boarders Muslims or Christians or Jews or anyone, can stop fully the responses our governments have to the "enemy", we can as individuals, see ourselves as such, despite what our governments do. I can and will reach out to any human, even if what that human claims, I may find absurd, who values the voice and allows for others the same right to complain or criticise others.

It is my hope for the east that violence is replaced with non violent protest. It is my hope that the Muslim and Christian and Jew worldwide have a planet where non violence is the social norm.

Words, even when they offend us, do not have to lead to murder. When someone offends me, and they have, I simply respond with words only, or I simply walk away from the situation. I have no doubt that if more Muslims in the world did that, rather than use violence, things will get better worldwide.

We are humans first. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, Chinese, Mexicans, and every mountan, and vally, every big city and rual farm, is occupied by people with families, and loved ones. Full of sons, fathers, mothers daughters, sisters and brothers. I think it serves humaity far better to tollerate offensive speech, in order to protect our desire to be free from physical violence. No point in human history has there been a time when one party or one person or one individual didn't say something that offended someone else.

I promise peace can be accheived, but violent protest has not worked and will not work. It didn't bring peace to Ireland. It was only after decades of murder on both sides, that both got tired of it. It doesn't impress me as a pro choice advocate when a Christian murders and abortion doctor. And Muslim violence wont impress me either.

But it is way past time we all realize that the COMMON GROUND we all have is that we are all humans and all humans don't like being physically harmed. If Islam wants to prove to the west it is above voilence, they have the power to lead by example. If the worst any human has to suffer is being offended, it is a far better proposition than the finality of death no one wants.




So to any Muslim reading this, please respond and explain what you think your are gaining by supporting violent protest?

This is so true. In another thread, I pointed out that Islam is clearly NOT a religion of peace and someone asked me if I had anything against Rayaan. At first I didn't even know what he meant.

But I don't think any appeal to Muslims will help. In one of the threads, I talked about a secret plan that I have that can rid the world of Islam of all this violence. It's a very easy plan and nobody gets hurt. But once it's carried through, even the Ayatollah will have a beer with Salman Rushdie and laugh over his supposed blasphemy. It will remain my secret plan until I'm elected PM of Britain. I'll then carry it out and I'm sure to be given the Nobel Peace Prize.

[5thHorseman]

[Brian37]

No, because the collective climate is far to theocratic. We have to as a species inject the attitude of less tribalism, and value individuality as the priority. There is not enough of that yet in Islam as a whole.

There was a time when Christianity as a collective whole was as tribal and barbaric as Islam is today. Until it has a collective secular attitude that values dissent and free speech, it must be as a collective challenged. I hold no illusions that the entire 7 billion of us will eventually share the same religion or all become atheists. But the climate does need adjustment as a whole.

I've already made it clear I am willing to stand with any Muslim who values dissent even that which may offend them. But I do not see enough voices as a climate in that region of the world that would lead me to conclude that they are on that path.

Political and religious labels will happen, our species has always been tribal, but we need collectively a priority shift to putting common law and demand for non violence as a priority. I do not see enough of that in the east.

Freud said it best "The first person to hurl an insult instead of a stone, started civilization".

Getting offended is not the worst thing in the world. We have bigger fish to fry as a collective species in terms of poverty, economic stability, disease, and war, to make our personal religions or positions the center of the universe.

There is not one human, when born, as a baby, who has the goal as a baby to default to violence. We get violent as adults and are taught stupid memes of honor, be it honor of the state or honor of a god.

Yet you can take a 4 year old or 5 year old from anywhere in the world, stick them in a room with others their age, and without adult beefs infecting them, they will socialize and set up their own structures without us.

The point is to get Islam to the same secular point the west has valued for over 200 years. It won't solve all our differences and there will always be individuals in all camps who seak to undermine the concept of pluralism and dissent. But once that leash gets put on all forms of facism, be it worship of a god, or a political party and or both, once Islam gets to that point, it will be a much better world, not only for the west, but even amounst their own.

They need their Thomas Jefferson. They need their Thomas Paine. They need their Keith Elleson.

[Reforged]

Not that I'm saying there isn't a valid point in what Brian wrote but that has to be one of the funniest memes I've ever seen.

[Brian37]

To any Muslim who may read this, or any arab of any religious label, or former Muslim, please respond in this post. Now before you read this please keep in mind that I will always support anyone's right to protest in non violent ways. I support freedom of religion, not as claims, but as a human right all goverments should protect.

By now the world knows about the Ambassador in Lybia being murdered, along with other Americans and 14 Muslims protecting them, and not even over a film they made, but right wing nutcase Christian here in the states.

To those who use violent protest what do you hope to acchieve , because I can tell you the west wont suddenly bow to voilence. It only surves to fan the flames of stereotypes and fear which becomes a vicious cycle of us vs them.

In the west our pluralistic socieity has learned to live without violence, with hearing and seeing offensive things. Christians and Jews see things like "The Piss Crist" and Jews have been accused of monopolies of media and was even feared by President Nixion. As an Atheist I have been equated to Hitler and Stalin and being immoral merely for not believing in any god.

No one likes to have their beliefs picked on. But what is better for humanity? Getting violent when we hear or see things we don't like? I see that as doing nothing but causing more division and fear and death. The Middle East is still way behind the west in tollerance and causes needless casims because of "honor".

I can promise without a doubt that things can get better for all parties involved when we allow offensive speech and demand any response to that offensive speech be strictly non violent. If the East wants the west to back off, I promise we are more than willing to, but not out of fear and not out of submission. We will only back off when the east gets to the same point of pluralism and protection of dissent. Part of freedom is sometimes hearing things you don't like.

A little look at American history and even the history of Christianty should show that Christianity once behaived as violently as some in Islam. It was only the idea of secularism and the common law of free speech and a ban on violence or calls to violence, that we learned to live peacefully. Christianity and europe and eventually the colonies escaped the tribalism over time.

But you need to face facts, and even some Christians and Jews do to. There are no labels and borders, or politics, or religions, in evolution. The fact is there is only ONE PLANET we all live on. There are 7 billion of us and to use violence to demand people never offend you, is nothing short of childish schoolyard bullying.

No one here is asking you to like the film that lead to this. No one here is asking you not to protest the film. All the west wants is for Muslims to stop killing people over merely being offended. We promise it CAN and will get better when you simply stick to using your voices and stop using weapons.

I've seen Muslims burn flags, fine, but stick to that. How is murdering another fellow human going to make that dead person's family want to listen to you?

The west does, outside of government and politics, but as individuals, wants to live in a peaceful world. I'd suggest you stop using your religion as a weapon, and if one is to respond to offensive things, respond to that individual who offended you, not with violence, but with your voice.

The days of conqest are over. The world is too small and there is no room for anyone on any side to create some asbolute power over the other. You only serve to cause more violence and death. If you say you want peace, the power is in your hands and CAN be accheaved quite easly by denouncing all violent protest.

George Washington was once asked in a letter what religion he wanted his contracter to be to build Mt Vernon. His response was basically "I don't care" and they could be anything including a Muslim as long as they did a good job.

He and the rest of the founders handed America something the world had not seen to that degree before. The concept that what we have in common is greater than our differences.

And Jefferson in response to the issue of "respect" and "honor" of politicians Adams had written to him, Adams was appauled at the treatment of all polticians. Jefferson in much more eloquent words than I am conveying here basically responded to him "That is the price you pay for living in a free society, sometimes you are going to hear things that offend you".

If any Muslim reading this thinks it is impractical to end Islam by force, I agree. But just as impractical for any political or religious label, is to use violence to protest. I was horrified to hear that a Sikh right after 9/11 was murdered and mistaken for a Muslim. I was horrified by the carpet bombing of Lebenon that killed both Muslims and Arab Christians.

While true, no matter what boarders Muslims or Christians or Jews or anyone, can stop fully the responses our governments have to the "enemy", we can as individuals, see ourselves as such, despite what our governments do. I can and will reach out to any human, even if what that human claims, I may find absurd, who values the voice and allows for others the same right to complain or criticise others.

It is my hope for the east that violence is replaced with non violent protest. It is my hope that the Muslim and Christian and Jew worldwide have a planet where non violence is the social norm.

Words, even when they offend us, do not have to lead to murder. When someone offends me, and they have, I simply respond with words only, or I simply walk away from the situation. I have no doubt that if more Muslims in the world did that, rather than use violence, things will get better worldwide.

We are humans first. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, Chinese, Mexicans, and every mountan, and vally, every big city and rual farm, is occupied by people with families, and loved ones. Full of sons, fathers, mothers daughters, sisters and brothers. I think it serves humaity far better to tollerate offensive speech, in order to protect our desire to be free from physical violence. No point in human history has there been a time when one party or one person or one individual didn't say something that offended someone else.

I promise peace can be accheived, but violent protest has not worked and will not work. It didn't bring peace to Ireland. It was only after decades of murder on both sides, that both got tired of it. It doesn't impress me as a pro choice advocate when a Christian murders and abortion doctor. And Muslim violence wont impress me either.

But it is way past time we all realize that the COMMON GROUND we all have is that we are all humans and all humans don't like being physically harmed. If Islam wants to prove to the west it is above voilence, they have the power to lead by example. If the worst any human has to suffer is being offended, it is a far better proposition than the finality of death no one wants.




So to any Muslim reading this, please respond and explain what you think your are gaining by supporting violent protest?

This is so true. In another thread, I pointed out that Islam is clearly NOT a religion of peace and someone asked me if I had anything against Rayaan. At first I didn't even know what he meant.

But I don't think any appeal to Muslims will help. In one of the threads, I talked about a secret plan that I have that can rid the world of Islam of all this violence. It's a very easy plan and nobody gets hurt. But once it's carried through, even the Ayatollah will have a beer with Salman Rushdie and laugh over his supposed blasphemy. It will remain my secret plan until I'm elected PM of Britain. I'll then carry it out and I'm sure to be given the Nobel Peace Prize.

If you are implying that I am delusional it is a false claim. I hold no illusions that things will change over night. But only a fool sits and complains and doesnt even care to try.

I am quite sure the slaves of America thought that slavery would never change. I am quite sure that women at one time thought why try to vote, that will never happen.

That is utter bullshit. I have had Muslim friends and even a former Muslim now atheist, who was from Morroco, who wants to see the same thing I do. I think you underestimate the empathy our species can and does have. Change cannot happen if no one dares to try.

There are no garuntees to life. But I am damned sure going to try and change is possible otherwise the oppresion in our human history that we no longer have in the west, would still exist.

"Nothings going to change" yea, with that attitude you are sure to fail. I'd rather fail trying than do nothing and insure failure.

If Christianity can leave the Dark Ages Islam can escape it's own uncivil barbarity. I'd like to give my fellow human that oportunity. Humans can be civil as much as they can be barbaric. So it is up to us what we promote.

[Reforged]

I agree that there has to be Muslims encouraging human rights and making a stand against extremism but at the same time Muslim extremists are quite violent and probably won't hesitate to kill someone they view to be guilty of heresy. You can see why there isn't a strong Muslim opposition to extremism when you take this into account.
How do you counter something like that which is so widely spread and has so few scruples?