what do you say to this?

[Minimalist]

When discussing Christianity with christians i evenutually hear "oh the old testament was took away when the christ came"

Matthew 5:17-19 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
The Fulfillment of the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matty 5

[Gabriel Syme]

When discussing Christianity with christians i evenutually hear "oh the old testament was took away when the christ came" i then recite passages that refute this and they just get mad! They Say i don't know enough or i should talk with a bible scholar,preacher, etc. They just stick their head in the sand or call me disrespectful. I try to explain that i am just saying what the bible says and haven't done anything but they just get more angry.

My question is what is some of your experiance with this and do you any advice about what to say to this?

Hi Justin

I can well understand why you are frustrated over this. I don't know what type of Christians you refer to, but in any case they are not explaining their point of view to you properly.

It is wrong of them to say that the problem is you not understanding -if they want you to understand their point of view, they have to explain it properly.

Calling you "disrespectful" is also unfair, because it is not disrespectful to question things. It sounds more like they are not confident at giving you a decent answer, and so are trying to close down the debate*.

(*this tactic is common in modern western society, in any type of discussion, where one side will attempt to silence the other by claiming their opinion is offensive, instead of actually engaging with the argument).

I am a Catholic and I can only tell you my understanding:

The Old testament is really the original Jewish holy book. It can be referred to as the original covenant of God with his people. For mainstream Christians (like me), the main value of the Old Testament is that its writings predict the coming of Jesus Christ.

As I understand it, the jewish interpretation of this "someone is to come to us" theme was that a powerful leader would arrive for the salvation of the jews. Perhaps someone who would be a great leader, a military commander even, who would help the jews throw out the Romans who occupied their country.

They were not expecting this 'someone' to be a guy like Jesus, who instead of being mighty and forceful, preached love and compassion, and encouraged people to love their enemies.

For Christians, the life of Jesus Christ fulfilled the old convenant / old law, in so far as (I) it said he was going to come for our salvation and (ii) he did. Done and dusted.

The idea of "fulfilment" means the prophecies of his arrival/lifetime were fulfilled.

In Matthew 5:17, Jesus tells us this himself, when he says:

"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.

This particular translation is very accessible and is useful to make the point.

He is saying "my presence here with you means the promise of the Old testament has been enacted".

He is talking of the fundamental message of the old testament - that he will come to save us - he is not talking about ancient jewish purity laws - about shellfish, or clothes of mixed fibres - or any of the other dubious stuff in the old testament.

Just before his death on the cross he said "It is accomplished". (or "it is finished"). (John 19:30)

Here he is referring to the conclusion of the prophecies made by the Old Testament.

Christians believe that Christs sacrifice is what saves us, not some John Rambo figure, like the jews expected. To save us - ie to give us the means of achieving salvation - he had to come to us, to teach us - and he knew he would be killed for it (hence "sacrifice").

His life (and death) represents the fulfilment of the old testament, the old covenant, and replaces it with the new testament, the new covenant - which is the stuff he preached during his ministry.

(It is notable that, after the life of Christ, The jews went back and edited their holy book, to remove passages which help support the idea that Christ was the messiah, the one who was to come.

Much later, at the time of the Reformation, the Protestants adopted the edited version of the Old Testament, which is why Catholic and Protestant bibles are different - the Protestant bible lacks various books which the Jews removed).

I hope this answer has made it a bit clearer what mainstream Christians believe - I can well understand why you are dissatisfied with what you have been hearing elsewhere when you ask.

To be honest - it might be that the people you are asking are unable to properly explain. Maybe they don't honestly know what to say.

But this is not to their discredit - most followers of most religions are not trained theologians and so are falling back on their own ability to articulate a point (and some humans are good at articulating themselves, and others not so good!)

Cheers
GS

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Matthew 5:17-19 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
The Fulfillment of the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matty 5

Re the bold - he says "until everything is accomplished".

Just prior to his death on the cross, he announced "It is accomplished" - his last words. (sometimes written as "it is finished" or "it is consummated", depending on the translation). John 19:30.

At the point of his death, the promise of the Old Testament was accomplished / completed / finished.

[Angrboda]

I find that Christians as a group our unusually prone to shamelessly making shit up when they don't have an answer.

This may be due to their inferior education, intelligence, their greater poverty, and an over-representation of schizotypal personality traits among them.

Regardless, it's frustrating, so I try to avoid such discussions, as when I do have them, I usually get frustrated and end up saying something like, "Go blow Jesus out your ass."

[Brian37]

This is what happens when I experience the preachers at school:

1) They preach to me.
2) I tell them I'm an atheist (sometimes I say I'm a Buddhist, simply because it sounds better to them than atheist).
3) If they don't go away, I then tell them I don't want to get my morality from a book where god kills a group of kids for ripping apart a group of children for making fun of a bald guy.
4) They accuse me of making that up.
5) I point out 2 Kings 2: 23-24
6) They try to babble some kind of semi-coherent answer, but generally leave me alone at that point

You just don't understand. Violence in the name of your invisible friend is a virtue, so those kids deserved it. Neener neener.

[justin]

When discussing Christianity with christians i evenutually hear "oh the old testament was took away when the christ came"

Matthew 5:17-19 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
The Fulfillment of the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matty 5

tried that that is usually whnen they get all but hurt no matter how i frame to question.

---

I find that Christians as a group our unusually prone to shamelessly making shit up when they don't have an answer.

This may be due to their inferior education, intelligence, their greater poverty, and an over-representation of schizotypal personality traits among them.

Regardless, it's frustrating, so I try to avoid such discussions, as when I do have them, I usually get frustrated and end up saying something like, "Go blow Jesus out your ass."

i know it is frustrating but when your family is christian and decide to pop there little crazy religous comment in when things happen good or bad it irritates the mess out of me. like "oh you got your morals from the bible and you taught me my morals from the bible when you yourself haven`t read the damn thing? hm i never knew things like slavery and rape were moral. well i`ll be damned"

[Cyberman]

This isn't quite the same, at least not in scale, but I have a couple of longtime and very dear friends, now married, who are more like hobby xtians; ie in it for the feeling of belonging to a club type of thing. Anyway, in the past they were much more blatant about proselytising to me than they are now. I well remember one occasion in a bookshop with one of them, when he came out withe a comment about how knowledge is the biggest cause of evil in the world; to which I replied "Second only to ignorance." Then there was the time when he tried to convince my nephew, then probably aged about six, that devils and demons were everywhere just waiting to punish the wicked etc. Later, when we were alone, my nephew came up to me, his favourite uncle, and asked me if all that stuff was true and that it had really frightened him. Of course I reassured him it was all bollocks (though I used a more age-appropriate term) and he forgot all about it. One short sharp, um, chat with my friend later, and he never tried that stunt again.

The reason I bring these examples up is that these friends are otherwise perfectly rational and down to Earth without these odd ideas. In fact, over the years their faith - such as it may have been - seems to have dwindled to the extent they don't appear to be a factor anymore. I'm sure it's due to my influence. So these stories don't always have to have an unhappy ending.

[Zone]

The Jews still believe the Old Testament (Torah as they call it) seeing for them no-one came along to make it a big obselete pile of steaming shit you can just ignore as Christians generally seem to think it is. And it would have been the holy book of Jesus himself as well of course. I'm a fan Old Testament myself, that'sa quality piece of ancient literature there.

[TheBritishAtheist55]

Christians at my school, they tend to bend it to how they want it to. Most do.

[Minimalist]

Just prior to his death on the cross, he announced "It is accomplished" - his last words. (sometimes written as "it is finished" or "it is consummated", depending on the translation). John 19:30.

Oddly, your other inerrant holy books have him saying something else for his last words.....

Another of those problem contradictions in the BBoHHS.

tried that that is usually whnen they get all but hurt no matter how i frame to question.

They need to learn that the truth may hurt but it remains true.

[justin]

This isn't quite the same, at least not in scale, but I have a couple of longtime and very dear friends, now married, who are more like hobby xtians; ie in it for the feeling of belonging to a club type of thing. Anyway, in the past they were much more blatant about proselytising to me than they are now. I well remember one occasion in a bookshop with one of them, when he came out withe a comment about how knowledge is the biggest cause of evil in the world; to which I replied "Second only to ignorance." Then there was the time when he tried to convince my nephew, then probably aged about six, that devils and demons were everywhere just waiting to punish the wicked etc. Later, when we were alone, my nephew came up to me, his favourite uncle, and asked me if all that stuff was true and that it had really frightened him. Of course I reassured him it was all bollocks (though I used a more age-appropriate term) and he forgot all about it. One short sharp, um, chat with my friend later, and he never tried that stunt again.

The reason I bring these examples up is that these friends are otherwise perfectly rational and down to Earth without these odd ideas. In fact, over the years their faith - such as it may have been - seems to have dwindled to the extent they don't appear to be a factor anymore. I'm sure it's due to my influence. So these stories don't always have to have an unhappy ending.

Wow thanks for sharing. Yeah i have alot of people i am close to friends, family, and even my boss( i feel almost bad when talking to him cause i'm thinking a kid Santa isn't real). My sister is kinda like your friend. Okay up till the point where she saying things but doesn't stop to realize what she is
saying. For example i just had a son and while his mother was getting prepped she thought this would be a great time to testify to me and eventually imply i would be a bad parent or wouldn't be raising him right if i didn't raise him in Christian faith. I was pissed but she still doesn't get where she is wrong. Alot of people have gotten use to me being atheist but then others not so much. My girlfriend (mother of my children) is christian but in the sense of what you said hobby xtian. She doesn't give me any problems and accept that it was how she was raised and faith is irrational but it's what she wants. We can talk about it with no problems and her faith still not be shaken but others well i can't say as much for.