Joking vs mockery, respect or disrespect?

[thesummerqueen]

Not a strawman, but me trying to puzzle out what you're going on about and responding to it.

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No offense, I just can't figure out where this is ultimately going, because you seem to say "well this is okay, but then you're not taking this into account."

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What am I stating, is that they don't necessarily have the perception you do that makes you see it the degree of it's ugliness or foolishness. They might have a little bit of that perception lingering in them, you can try to show them that perception, etc...but they don't necessarily have it just because you do. Doesn't mean you can't state why it's wrong or what makes is so ugly per your view, or why you find it so foolish.

And that they shouldn't be judged per the notion "they should see as I do or they do see as I do".

I never once said they did, all I said was I refuse to stop mocking someone's beliefs that I find abhorrent.

[Mystic]

I thought also relevant with this would be this formal proof:


I do not find the belief x to be respectable for me to hold.
If I knew I were to hold belief x, I currently would disrespect that future self, given the perception I have now.

This is to show you cannot respect a future notion of yourself with those beliefs because of the knowledge you have. It appears evil for you to do or believe in.

However, if you respect others, given they have those beliefs you would not respect your future self for holding....

I think this means you have an understanding that the beliefs x don't appear the same way to them, as they do to you.

Otherwise...we can add:

I should respect people as much I would respect future self for belief x.
Therefore I shouldn't respect anyone with belief x.

Therefore necessarily, if you can distinguish between respecting the person and their beliefs, you already sort of agree with me

[thesummerqueen]

I don't mess with logical proofs. I haven't studied them, and I don't give much of a shit about them. You can call this stupid if you like, but I'm letting you know that this is not going to be an adequate way of communicating your idea to me because it's not something I hold much of an understanding of.

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Therefore necessarily, if you can distinguish between respecting the person and their beliefs, you already sort of agree with me

I think I already said, or at least alluded to the fact of, that I don't disrespect the person until they start acting in a disrespectful manner.

All of this, of course, predicated on the subjectiveness of what exactly is disrespectful.

[Mystic]

I don't mess with logical proofs. I haven't studied them, and I don't give much of a shit about them. You can call this stupid if you like, but I'm letting you know that this is not going to be an adequate way of communicating your idea to me because it's not something I hold much of an understanding of.

That explains a lot I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

Ok what I'm saying is that, you cannot accept a certain belief x as something you would ever believe in at current moment, because you find it totally repulsive given your understanding. You would not respect a future idea of yourself holding this belief.

If it is true, that you should hold them to your standards of your perception of beliefs, then you would not be able to respect anyone while disrespecting their beliefs.

The very fact you respect them shows you understand they don't perceive their beliefs in the same way you do.

[thesummerqueen]

So you just went round and round for a few pages to ascertain the fact that I understand that not everyone thinks the same way I do.

Wouldn't it have been easier just to ask that question instead of making mini lectures?

[Mystic]

So you just went round and round for a few pages to ascertain the fact that I understand that not everyone thinks the same way I do.

Wouldn't it have been easier just to ask that question instead of making mini lectures?

Well let's go back to what I stated: http://atheistforums.org/thread-18094-po...#pid425416

I'm talking about how you view some belief as ugly for yourself to hold , then people might find it an ugly belief for others to hold, but right now the proof I offered show really it's how people apply it to themselves (ie. if you would accept in the near future) that they find it ugly.

It makes no sense to apply this to others and if we did, we would not respect people with unrespectable beliefs for ourselves.

The fact we do respect people with unrespectable beliefs for us to hold, shows we should also understand that's it's not necessarily ugly for them given what they know and perceive and have experienced, at least not to the same degree (otherwise we wouldn't respect them).

[thesummerqueen]

You seem to be assuming that I arrive at my beliefs mostly because someone praised me for having them. Is this true? I'm trying to simplify this discussion into parts.

[Mystic]

You seem to be assuming that I arrive at my beliefs mostly because someone praised me for having them. Is this true? I'm trying to simplify this discussion into parts.

Well, no, I'm saying it's made easier to perceive something wrong when there is praise consensus it's wrong. While the opposite is true, it's harder to perceive something wrong when there is praise consensus that it is right.

Anyways, that was a minor point, and would not invalidate the argument, if it was true or not true.

[thesummerqueen]

I'm not claiming it's a major or minor point, I'm just trying to parse out exactly what you think we're "arguing" about. Especially this "future self" vs "present self" stuff.


I'm going to lay out my side as simply and as clearly as possible:

Someone holds a belief. I think it's ugly. I mock the belief because I think it's ugly. What is important is whether or not I can back up that mocking with evidence and clear, communicated opinion on why it's ugly.

I don't initially mock the person. After all, that person could change. I've changed over the years. Sometimes due to mocking making me reflect on what I believed.

Sometimes I mock people in a more personal fashion. This is because they have ceased discussion or argument and resorted to being personally ugly, and then I must tell them how I am perceiving them to be acting. If this is not the way they think they are coming across, we can discuss that as well. What people don't seem to realize is that everything is up for discussion, and the only way to reach clear communication is to keep discussing it.

[Minimalist]

I want to go on record as stating that my mockery is ALWAYS intended as a sign of disrespect.

However, I pride myself on being an Equal Opportunity Mocker. Any one who believes in absurd ancient superstitious bullshit deserves to have the shit mocked out of them.

That is all.