Joking vs mockery, respect or disrespect?

[Nine]

Only time I won't swear is in front of my family. Mostly because I'm too stubborn to start now.

[Mystic]

It's not so far off, Mystic, as there are many people who feel that if you vehemently disagree with them and find their beliefs and values disgusting, then you are personally insulting them.

But neither you or I have this view. So the title is far off.

Also, I think when we find beliefs disgusting, we think of them, "how does this belief feel to me from the perspective of my knowledge and perception" and then think "this is how it should(or does) feel to them"

But it's not necessarily the case. Also, is the impact of how much praise of the value you get as feed back from your society.

Today, slavery is mostly condemned, because we have reached a praise consensus. So it's clear.

But to the people of the past, without that praise consensus, can we apply how it feels to us or should feel to us given our knowledge and feedback we have, to that of society in the past who didn't get that feedback?

They may have deep inside felt it might've been wrong, been uncomfortable with it, but it's not the same, how it feels to us.

The same is true of beliefs in hell, etc.

You stepped out of it and also have gotten feedback from others, and have realized that it's ugly belief for you to adopt.

It isn't necessarily that way for others, they don't perceive as you do.

Stepping out of one perception into another is very difficult.

But I think it's ok to dislike beliefs for ourselves, but we shouldn't measure beliefs as if they apply universally in perception of humans.

[thesummerqueen]

So I believe rape is awful, but if someone believes rape is okay I need to look at it from their perspective? Because they think it's okay to intimately invade and take and hurt and destroy?

Nah.

You and I don't have to share the view of the title for it to apply to what she thought we were discussing. We're not the only two people on this forum, y'know.

[Mystic]

So I believe rape is awful, but if someone believes rape is okay I need to look at it from their perspective?

Something like that. Believe it or not, some people do justify raping your slaves (I think a lot of Muslim scholars justified it via hadiths). Do they see "sick" like us with our view of "slavery" and "rape", nope...if they did, they wouldn't accept it.

Because they think it's okay to intimately invade and take and hurt and destroy?

Yeah, we don't have their perception.

When I was a child, I use to fight all the time. Others saw me as very violent person. But I didn't see anything wrong inherent with fighting. If someone insults me, then I saw that I was allowed to fight him. That was my perception.

Of course, I've grown out of that perception. For you to judge a child that doesn't perceive it to be wrong with your own standard that you apply to what you should do, is wrong.

The same I feel is true of people that are not as "grown" or "sophisticated" in "intelligence/enlightenment".

[thesummerqueen]

I'm not understanding why I should respect someone's beliefs simply because they haven't reached some level of enlightenment or intelligence. Do you tell the child it's okay to fight because he's a child instead of correcting him?

[Mystic]

I'm not understanding why I should respect someone's beliefs simply because they haven't reached some level of enlightenment or intelligence. Do you tell the child it's okay to fight because he's a child instead of correcting him?

I'm not stating to respect their beliefs. Neither am I telling you not to educate them and try to bring them to the right perception.

It's just that, how it appears to you (very ugly, very hideous), you shouldn't think that's how it appears to them or should appear to them, given their own experience and understanding.

That, and the praise feedback you get from like minded people, helps you grow stronger in opinion to your view.

But if they face praise consensus against that view in their society, then this is a factor you have to put. We naturally succumb to praise consensus of society.

[thesummerqueen]

I already understand that they obviously don't see it as something wrong, since they do the action or defend the action. This still doesn't address why I shouldn't mock or belittle a belief I find absolutely atrocious.

[Mystic]

Well they might (and probably do) have a part of them that tells them it's wrong. All I'm saying is that, when you see a notion as ridiculous or foolish or ugly, your seeing from the perspective of given the knowledge you have and what you perceive, and the strength of your seeing power, which was influenced a lot by praise feedback and consensus of like minded people, you then could possibly think, how can they believe such a foolish/ugly thing from perspective that they should see it like you given your experience.

All I'm saying, is things are more complicated than that. Not saying you can't mock or belittle beliefs...at least they will wonder why it seems funny to you. But personally, I don't, because I find the fact we are all misguided in our relative viewpoints to be a sad matter, that I have to come to peace with and forbear.

[thesummerqueen]

You're telling me I should be nice because I might be wrong about some things too. I'm aware of it, and I get called out about it. A lot. Frequently by my own boyfriend. I don't expect people to be gentle about some silliness I hold.

You're expecting me (and explaining to me thus) to see things in black and white when in fact most of the time on this forum I'm the one saying that things never are. Just because things come in shades of grey doesn't mean you can't say "this is wrong."

[Mystic]

You're telling me I should be nice because I might be wrong about some things too. I'm aware of it, and I get called out about it. A lot. Frequently by my own boyfriend. I don't expect people to be gentle about some silliness I hold.

Strawman. I didn't even say you have to be nice about it and you being wrong or right doesn't matter, you can be correct in all matters of right and wrong, but what I'm saying is unrelated to that.

You're expecting me (and explaining to me thus) to see things in black and white when in fact most of the time on this forum I'm the one saying that things never are. Just because things come in shades of grey doesn't mean you can't say "this is wrong."

Well it can very well be wrong and you can say that, but what I'm saying is entirely different. Strawman again.

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What am I stating, is that they don't necessarily have the perception you do that makes you see it the degree of it's ugliness or foolishness. They might have a little bit of that perception lingering in them, you can try to show them that perception, etc...but they don't necessarily have it just because you do. Doesn't mean you can't state why it's wrong or what makes is so ugly per your view, or why you find it so foolish.

And that they shouldn't be judged per the notion "they should see as I do or they do see as I do".