Suicide: An Ethical Delimna

[robvalue]

I don't have any problem with suicide. I think the argument that life is always preferable to death is absurd. A life can be almost nothing but pain and suffering, coupled with the knowledge that it almost certainly won't improve.

I've come damn close myself, a few years ago it was all I could think about 24 hours a day. I was actually hoping I would get an incurable, fatal disease so it wouldn't be my fault.

Overall, right now, if it didn't affect anyone else I would most likely off myself. But it would hugely impact several people, have a lesser but significant impact on others, and would remove the potential I have to make the world just that little bit better. So I weigh things up and say my life is bearable enough that I feel it would be selfish to end it.

I hold hope that my health improves so that one day suicide will not even be an option. I have made promises that if ever start making actual plans, I will discuss it with my wife immediately. It has never got that far yet.

I can't stand the "right to life" people. What they are actually promoting is the "right to enforce other people's decisions about life". If they lived 5 minutes as someone in constant agony, and in the throes of the darkest depression, they would be begging for it to end.

So in conclusion, I think its everyone's own decision and there should be no stigma attached. The only caveat is the case where you have good reason to believe the person is not in their normal state of mind, and that there's a good chance they will return to it. Then I would say you can make a moral argument for stopping them. If they're not in their normal state of mind but almost certainly won't return to it, then this new state of mind is their normal state. If that is unbearable to them, then let them end it.

I also have no problem with extremely carefully actioned assisted suicide. And not just for terminally ill people. I dismiss ridiculous slippery slope arguments like "people will be killing their grandmother and getting away with it!" No, they won't. Not any more than they are already doing anyway.

[ManMachine]

What is the logical reasoning and moral angle against suicide?

The only thing I can refute myself with is the probably fact that one day I will be happy and well balanced. But really, that isn't logic is it?

(Disclaimer: I'm not severely suicidal, just someone with some tendencies that come and go and am trying to logically refute my self.)

If we accept the Darwinian notion of perpetuating our genes as the primary human imperative then how can you do that, then nurture them and protect them if your dead?

Doesn't stand to reason.

MM

[robvalue]

I have to disagree there.

If we personify evolution, then suicide is just another way to weed out the "unfit".

Further, it's impossible to help or hinder evolution, because evolution is just "whatever happens". Everything we do, or don't do, is just part of evolution.

I think a lot of people assume without any thought that keeping the human race going is important, and good. I totally disagree with this too. It's only good for us. For the planet as a whole and for all its other inhabitants, we are awful. It's just one of the reasons I would never create more humans.

I value animal life as much as human life, as much as I can. (I know this is an impossible ideal to live up to when you consider insect life and so on, but at least with the larger, more intelligent forms of life.) If there's something you wouldn't do to a human, then in general, you shouldn't do it to an animal. Otherwise, were just being bullies and are no better than slave drivers.

[stillagnostic]

In my opinion, anyone who is in a terminally ill state should have the right to suicide. In other cases, well yeah people should help a suicidal person as much as possible but once again that person still has the right to end his/her life.

[bennyboy]

I disagree with the idea that suicide is an individual decision. A person's parents have invested very much time and effort in raising the person. The government has provided schooling, healthcare and other services.

A self-centered teen will often declare "I didn't ASK to be born. I didn't want to go to stupid old school anyway. Why do I owe anything to anyone?" I disagree with this sentiment, because all those abstracts represent a real usage of resources: food, clean water, etc. as well as indirect damage, like the destruction of a small forest in order to make paper for the person's lifetime of reading and toiletries.

Nobody asked to be alive, that is true. Nevertheless, I think it's pretty shitty to dine and dash. If one's life is to be thrown away, why not spend a couple years planting trees, or working with needy kids or something? Why just flip a giant bird to the good that could be done if one wasn't such a selfish, childish prick?

[robvalue]

I agree totally that it can be viewed as selfish. But are you suggesting they should not have the right to do it on their own authority?

[bennyboy]

I agree totally that it can be viewed as selfish. But are you suggesting they should not have the right to do it on their own authority?

Do we have the right to do something which is unethical? Even if we extend to an individual the right to choose wrong and to act on it, it is still wrong.

[robvalue]

Well, by right I'm talking about legal enforcement. We allow people to legally do things that could easily be argued to be immoral.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I didn't mean from a philosophical standpoint, which I can get on board with, but with regard to actual lawmaking. I think people should be able to make that choice without interference. Forcing someone to live out their life when all they want to do is end it is very cruel.

Of course there all the usual caveats about state of mind and age.

[Ryantology]

I disagree with the idea that suicide is an individual decision. A person's parents have invested very much time and effort in raising the person. The government has provided schooling, healthcare and other services.

Does this oblige a person to continue living?

A self-centered teen will often declare "I didn't ASK to be born. I didn't want to go to stupid old school anyway. Why do I owe anything to anyone?" I disagree with this sentiment, because all those abstracts represent a real usage of resources: food, clean water, etc. as well as indirect damage, like the destruction of a small forest in order to make paper for the person's lifetime of reading and toiletries.

Yeah, but the argument that they should continue to live, against their will, and cause more of this incidental damage because they've already caused some, is irrational.

Nobody asked to be alive, that is true. Nevertheless, I think it's pretty shitty to dine and dash. If one's life is to be thrown away, why not spend a couple years planting trees, or working with needy kids or something? Why just flip a giant bird to the good that could be done if one wasn't such a selfish, childish prick?

It's much more selfish to shame a person who wants to die (not to mention, the best way to approach a suicidal person if you want to reinforce the lack of self-worth that drives so many people to it) because you are offended by the fact that they don't see the same reasons you do to keep living.

Homophobes hate homosexuals because they were taught to find it icky and unnatural. Arguing against suicide from a position of "because I don't like it" doesn't have the hate element, but the moral ground is similar in all other respects.

[robvalue]

Sure, I mean my parents readily admit to having me because they want me to worship them, and to look after them when they are old. They are the selfish ones, and I have no obligation to do either of those things. And if I want to die, I agree it's very wrong to guilt me into living a miserable existence as a way of "thanking" people.