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RE: Dr. Craig is a liar.
May 11, 2016 at 11:23 am
(This post was last modified: May 12, 2016 at 9:21 am by Mister Agenda.)
Since Steve went on about how sound it is, I decided to take another look at it:
1.Whatever begins to exist has a cause; (What is this based on? With the exception of virtual particles, we've never witnessed anything 'beginning to exist', it's all transformations from previous states. And virtual particles don't have a cause, just a reason).
2.The universe began to exist; Therefore: (We don't know that. The universe could have existed eternally in different states.)
3.The universe has a cause. (Fallacy of composition; the rules that apply within the universe don't necessarily apply TO the universe. That things need a cause is something we derive from the behavior of things within the universe.)
So, this syllogism is flawed at every turn. Craig follows it with this beauty, as though the previous bit had actually been proven:
1.The universe has a cause; (Not established.)
2.If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful; Therefore:(That list doesn't even follow; it's a non-sequitur; and immaterial, timeless, and spaceless is literally a description of nothing. Since the math works for a vacuum fluctuation being enough to start a universe; 'enormously powerful' doesn't seem to be justified. Changeless is a contradictory attribute for something that starts changing things. And why couldn't an impersonal cause be responsible? And why couldn't the cause be caused, an infinite chain of causality is no more implausible that a changeless being that changes things?)
3.An uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful. (Just a re-statement of 2.; apparently just so it looks like it's in the proper form of an argument).
Yet Steve is mystified by why we're not impressed by this. Steve, the purpose of apologetics isn't to convince non-believers, it's to reassure believers that they're being reasonable.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: Dr. Craig is a liar.
May 11, 2016 at 11:23 am
(May 11, 2016 at 10:28 am)SteveII Wrote: (May 11, 2016 at 9:10 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Numbers are just models; tangible constructs thought up by human minds to describe the abstract concepts of mathematics. I don't understand why theists are always so baffled by the invention of numeric symbols. It's really not that different from how we use language, but I've never heard a theist using the existence of words as evidence for god.
So, say in another identical universe, there were no minds to contemplate such things. Would that mean that the concept of 8 objects does not exist? Does that mean that E=MC^2 still does not have a mathematical relationship? Does that mean that the idea of P then Q; P therefore Q would not have meaning? Words just represent concepts.
Your problem, Steve, is in imagining an "identical universe." Instead, imagine an Alice in Wonderland universe on LSD cranked up to 11. In that universe, the concept of 8 objects would have no meaning, because every grouping would be an ever-changing collection of random objects. Energy=Mass*Speed of Light^2 would be replaced by Penguins=Purple*Toothpicks, changing instantly to Vodka=Cellphones/Ant Farts, and so on. The concept of P then Q; P therefore Q wouldn't hold in such a crazy universe consisting only of nonsensical random fluctuations.
Therefore, it is only because of the natural observational consistencies within a universe like ours that logic and math hold any meaning and can describe and model these concepts inside our human brains. These concepts are not at all "transcendent" as some theists would have it, but very much dependent upon the empirical properties of the type of universe we find ourselves in. However, even within our universe, we have spacetime distortions, quantum uncertainties, superpositions and entanglements, dark matter, dark energy, etc., which we cannot fully explain given our current logical or mathematical tools - actual attributes of this universe which seem almost as bizarre as the one we might imagine on the other side of the looking glass.
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Dr. Craig is a liar.
May 11, 2016 at 11:39 am
(May 11, 2016 at 10:49 am)SteveII Wrote: (May 11, 2016 at 10:39 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Well of course all those concepts would still exist, assuming this other universe is identical to ours. I just don't see how it supports the God hypothesis. The laws of our universe exist as they are. I don't understand your point.
The point is, (perhaps with the exception of E=MC^2) these concepts to not require any particular universe to exist.
I would argue that they do require existence (A.K.A. The universe) to exist...and subsequently, they require minds to label and describe them. This is all perfectly reasonable to assume without help from a god.
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Dr. Craig is a liar.
May 11, 2016 at 11:40 am
(This post was last modified: May 11, 2016 at 11:43 am by LadyForCamus.)
(May 11, 2016 at 10:41 am)SteveII Wrote: (May 11, 2016 at 10:20 am)Irrational Wrote: Exactly! So not even entering time could occur ...
How does that follow? At the point of creation, God became temporal because that is when time began.
And piggy backing off of Time Traveler's points, where on your timeless timeline is the "point" of creation plotted?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Dr. Craig is a liar.
May 11, 2016 at 11:54 am
(May 11, 2016 at 11:23 am)Time Traveler Wrote: (May 11, 2016 at 10:28 am)SteveII Wrote: So, say in another identical universe, there were no minds to contemplate such things. Would that mean that the concept of 8 objects does not exist? Does that mean that E=MC^2 still does not have a mathematical relationship? Does that mean that the idea of P then Q; P therefore Q would not have meaning? Words just represent concepts.
Your problem, Steve, is in imagining an "identical universe." Instead, imagine an Alice in Wonderland universe on LSD cranked up to 11. In that universe, the concept of 8 objects would have no meaning, because every grouping would be an ever-changing collection of random objects. Energy=Mass*Speed of Light^2 would be replaced by Penguins=Purple*Toothpicks, changing instantly to Vodka=Cellphones/Ant Farts, and so on. The concept of P then Q; P therefore Q wouldn't hold in such a crazy universe consisting only of nonsensical random fluctuations.
Therefore, it is only because of the natural observational consistencies within a universe like ours that logic and math hold any meaning and can describe and model these concepts inside our human brains. These concepts are not at all "transcendent" as some theists would have it, but very much dependent upon the empirical properties of the type of universe we find ourselves in. However, even within our universe, we have spacetime distortions, quantum uncertainties, superpositions and entanglements, dark matter, dark energy, etc., which we cannot fully explain given our current logical or mathematical tools - actual attributes of this universe which seem almost as bizarre as the one we might imagine on the other side of the looking glass.
That second hypothetical universe sounds AWESOME. Toothpicks turning into vodka? Count me IN!
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Dr. Craig is a liar.
May 11, 2016 at 11:55 am
God seems a bit crappy when we can all imagine far better universes without breaking a sweat, huh?
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RE: Dr. Craig is a liar.
May 11, 2016 at 11:57 am
(This post was last modified: May 11, 2016 at 12:02 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I think this might be turning into gibberish. We're told that an unchanging god becomes something, we're told that concepts don't require a particular universe to exist, and also that the concepts of math and logic are dependent upon a universe in which god exists - possibly even dependent upon that god itself within that particular universe. We're told that god is limited by possibility but also that possibility is somehow defined by or rooted in whatever it is a god does or is. We're told that a temporal cause can exist in the absence of a temporal framework and even in the absence of existence.
All of this, confusingly, we're told in defense of an argument which fails to establish what is being claimed. Which is -supposed- to make someones beliefs rational....somehow?
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RE: Dr. Craig is a liar.
May 11, 2016 at 12:01 pm
This all just sounds like kids arguing whose super hero would win, and they keep giving them more and more ridiculous powers.
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May 11, 2016 at 12:03 pm
(May 11, 2016 at 11:55 am)robvalue Wrote: God seems a bit crappy when we can all imagine far better universes without breaking a sweat, huh?
LOL, yeah, no kidding! We know he has a hard-on for blood and violence, and now it seems he's got a terrible imagination to boot! This guy would be a real killjoy at parties...
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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Dr. Craig is a liar.
May 11, 2016 at 12:04 pm
(This post was last modified: May 11, 2016 at 12:04 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(May 11, 2016 at 12:01 pm)robvalue Wrote: This all just sounds like kids arguing whose super hero would win, and they keep giving them more and more ridiculous powers.
Hmmm...sounds like a good premise for a video, Rob. What do you think?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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