Dear Atheists

[ParagonLost]

I practice Theistic Mysticism, I see and imagine Jesus as imagery and he is incarnate in my mind and experience. You might see this as communication not meant to be literary taken or a stylistic device. The experience is so strong that one walks away taking it literally and not for granted. Not unless of course you are aware that's it's not literal. (Some people don't know the difference or make a distinction.)

In Theistic mysticism God is not creation, he is the opposite. He is not created , this is why Christians believe there is no infinite regress, ergo; who created God.
This is why experience is so important it has the power to convert. And i don't mean convert your religion, I mean just change your mind about experience and what you used to think it was is now radically different. There's different kinds of mysticism and you can be creative and see which one works for you.

You see and imagine Jesus. Interesting. What does your image of him look like? By chance, does it resemble a figure in a Renaissance painting? Did you pick his face out of some news footage of Palestinian protesters? Does he resemble Judd Hirsch? I like to imagine Jesus looking like Lenny Bruce. What does it even mean to "see and imagine" Jesus, since we don't know what the guy actually looked like (one of those unimportant and uninteresting things the Gospel writers didn't bother to mention)?

I buy the idea that meditation and prayer can lead to altered states of consciousness that can feel intrinsically valuable to the practitioner. But it still sounds to me like you're illegitimately shoe-horning Jesus into your experiences, rather than "Jesus" being the driver of the experiences and their contents.

Because i imagine Jesus, I use the word optics for this kind of experience. Something that is perceptible by the sense of sight or perceptible by the mind. The mind is very complicated and so is consciousness, Don't ever let anyone define your experience of the world at least that's what i say. When i was younger I would imagine Jesus because iv'e seen pictures of him in art and the Renaissance. But i now realize its my mind trying to picture him. So my mind has convinced itself that whatever I imagine is not the real physical phenotype of Jesus. That's not important to me in any case but what is, is this.

In Christianity since Jesus is God we have to understand what that means. " I and the Father are one" as we all have heard in John's Gospel. What does this mean based off experience alone? In Christian mysticism, It's not that Jesus is above everyone else but were on a equal playing field with God. All Children of God, including Jesus. So the destination is to become Like Christ, which is called the transforming union. We can all become sons of God, John 1:12.

So through experience you can grow and become close to God. And John's main message of who God is , is that God is love. As said in the gospel, and the only way to know that is to experience God. Now the trick is you don't have to define it as God. This is what i meant by standards in my initial post. You can just call it Love except for the fact when you experience something like this you will realize it is strong in nature so divine in theological language.

[Excited Penguin]

Right. Read the title and went "Oh no..."

Noticed no kudos(fucks) were given, "Aw, hell no".

I'm not even reading this shit.

[Simon Moon]

Because i imagine Jesus, I use the word optics for this kind of experience. Something that is perceptible by the sense of sight or perceptible by the mind. The mind is very complicated and so is consciousness, Don't ever let anyone define your experience of the world at least that's what i say. When i was younger I would imagine Jesus because iv'e seen pictures of him in art and the Renaissance. But i now realize its my mind trying to picture him. So my mind has convinced itself that whatever I imagine is not the real physical phenotype of Jesus. That's not important to me in any case but what is, is this.

In Christianity since Jesus is God we have to understand what that means. " I and the Father are one" as we all have heard in John's Gospel. What does this mean based off experience alone? In Christian mysticism, It's not that Jesus is above everyone else but were on a equal playing field with God. All Children of God, including Jesus. So the destination is to become Like Christ, which is called the transforming union. We can all become sons of God, John 1:12.

So through experience you can grow and become close to God. And John's main message of who God is , is that God is love. As said in the gospel, and the only way to know that is to experience God. Now the trick is you don't have to define it as God. This is what i meant by standards in my initial post. You can just call it Love except for the fact when you experience something like this you will realize it is strong in nature so divine in theological language.

I don't think you've mentioned it yet, but I am curious.

In your cherry picked version of Christianity, what happens to us nonbelievers after we die?

[Minimalist]

Because i imagine Jesus,

So has everyone else.

[ParagonLost]

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Because i imagine Jesus, I use the word optics for this kind of experience. Something that is perceptible by the sense of sight or perceptible by the mind. The mind is very complicated and so is consciousness, Don't ever let anyone define your experience of the world at least that's what i say. When i was younger I would imagine Jesus because iv'e seen pictures of him in art and the Renaissance. But i now realize its my mind trying to picture him. So my mind has convinced itself that whatever I imagine is not the real physical phenotype of Jesus. That's not important to me in any case but what is, is this.

In Christianity since Jesus is God we have to understand what that means. " I and the Father are one" as we all have heard in John's Gospel. What does this mean based off experience alone? In Christian mysticism, It's not that Jesus is above everyone else but were on a equal playing field with God. All Children of God, including Jesus. So the destination is to become Like Christ, which is called the transforming union. We can all become sons of God, John 1:12.

So through experience you can grow and become close to God. And John's main message of who God is , is that God is love. As said in the gospel, and the only way to know that is to experience God. Now the trick is you don't have to define it as God. This is what i meant by standards in my initial post. You can just call it Love except for the fact when you experience something like this you will realize it is strong in nature so divine in theological language.

I don't think you've mentioned it yet, but I am curious.

In your cherry picked version of Christianity, what happens to us nonbelievers after we die?

I believe God is Just and Holy and he will give unbelievers everlasting life. If there is a literal Afterlife...

[ParagonLost]

Dear Atheists,

A warm welcome from a friendly Christian who is interested to hear from you and is willing to listen deeply. I respect you so much, you have courage of your convictions and are truly free thinkers in a complicated world. One thing I don't understand is your constant rejection of God. Does that mean that your standards aren't met with the right definition of God? In classical Christianity God wasn't debated like it is today. One may ask back then "does God exist? "Well Yeah, I mean of course!".

Thank you for your respect I suppose. What do you mean constant rejection of god? In my day to day life I barely ever think about any mythological deities, maybe with the exception of when I'm interacting with fellow atheists on this forum. Besides that, I usually don't think or talk about any god or gods. It never comes up in conversation with most people I interact with. I feel no need to talk about it... The same way I don't feel the need to discuss the nonexistence of vampires or unicorns. What do you mean about the definition of god? What do my 'standards' have to do with a supernatural being? Standards for what? And so what if god wasn't debated like in 'classical Christianity,' whatever that means? Just because a large number of people accepted something as fact once upon a time does not give said thing any more or less validity.

Lets get the Definitions of God right because I mean it in a plural sense, I do believe in multiple definitions. It could be the ground of being, a transcendent being wholly apart from the Universe but immanent and involved in the Universe. But how do you see God or feel him? Feeling is the key word and synonymous with personal experience. Let's forget about Christianity for a minute and look at wider cultures in our beautiful world traditions. Mystics though out the ages have practiced deep contemplation, meditation, and prayer. They have all reported findings that are so important when once experienced, may be one of the most life changing phenomenon we can have. Neuroscience is trying to understand prayer and meditation at the level of the brain so it's very much in concordance with evidence. Now the question is how creative are you going to be? Are you going to use your experience in prayer or meditation to link or confirm your experience or contact with God in Christ and believe he is Lord? Or Allah? It's up to you to interpret your experience in the confines of a religion or no religion at all, which is fine too.

I don't know if I've seen that definition of god in any dictionary, did you just make that up? Also, deep contemplation and meditation CAN have some real world effects on the human mind, but prayer? Not so much.  And to say that one can interpret their experiences with meditation and such differently illustrates that there is no ONE TRUE answer to explain all of these experiences. I have had amazing LSD trips that have completely changed the way I see the world. Does that mean the experience had anything to do with god? No, it doesn't. Meditation can produce some amazingly intense experiences and I actually practice meditation myself from time to time. But a connection with a god? I don't think so.

The reason I'm a Christian is because I feel the presence of God and that is evidence. The second is I believe he historically existed but I don't believe he said everything the same way as reported in the gospels. I don't even think he considered himself God. Why am i placing so much importance in the presence of God in my life? I think because it correlates directly to the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Disciples had a strong experience of the Lord after his death that he is a living reality in the present. But the reality they experienced was so strong that it was a "divine reality" being one with God and at the right hand of God.

Many of these experiences were visions or revelations. I don't believe in a physical or literal resurrection: as if the corpse of Jesus letter-to-letter transformed to another body. What are visions? I think it's unfair to classify them as hallucinations as if its a drug induced thing. But in a vision you can see a person, for example a passed away relative. You can see them and hold them and even talk to them. They can talk back and tell you things. Because the disciples had physical contact with the real Jesus in his real body when he was living on earth, I believe their memories of him telling them things was re introduced in their visions and experience: so I can imagine they're memory off shooting and repeating the phrase " I love you Peter" for example in the vision. So the Lord would have said that twice to Peter. Once in real life and once in the vision.

There is no reason to believe that 'visions,' religious or otherwise, are anything BUT hallucinations. If you went to a psychologist or psychiatrist and told them you had visions of jesus or heard god in your head they would probably diagnose you with schizoaffective disorder or schizophrenia.

People might say well they're just visions, its just a experience they had why hold it to such high self esteem? Because anybody who's had a experience or a vision doesn't say "it's only a vision". It's rock solid fact, and it creates reality. And its one of the most important things they will ever remember even in their dying breath.

Thank you so much for reading, I hope you Always stay blessed and think of Good.

Best Wishes

P.S I hope this doesn't come across as proyselytizing.

I have had VERY intense hallucinations from different hallucinogenic drugs. Hallucinations that have changed, even to this day, how I think about myself and the world around me, but I will be the first one to tell you that they WERE JUST HALLUCINATIONS. Nothing more.

You sound just like every other christian and bring nothing new to the table. 

I don't think it's fair to compare vampire or unicorns with God. For example there aren't many people who say they experience unicorns or fairies. It's a non word it has no substance in reality. But with God the experience can be knowledge granting, and in fact confirm his existence. Mysticism is a perceptual thing; a participation with divine realities. In the plural because it can be more than one reality. It is filled with phenomenological content and it's directed towards an object. In my case Jesus. Or Christian symbols and language. Phenomenology refers to a person's perception of "meaning" as opposed to the event as it exists outside of his mind. Lets take for example you're a outsider looking in. It's impossible to do, I don't even know how you do something like that but imagine your on the inside then you can be creative and interpret your framework as to what "feels" right or tactility. It must be said that feeling isn't just a emotion I'm talking about but feeling embraced or held.

There are theistic and non theistic mystical experiences. Numinous Theistic Mystical Experiences are dualistic in nature and there's a division between characters, You and God 2 separate objects in the experience. Non Theistic can be a experience of filling one with the universe or nature. Sometimes Theistic intimacy can help you declare "I am God".

Do you think you could explain your experience you had on LSD in words. I would imagine it would be hard. I understand that you may believe my experience of the resurrection is not vernacular but self deceived delusions. In my opinion It means three things. 1. Jesus is a divine reality based off experience
2. Jesus is Lord the object of my reality. 3. Jesus was raised from the dead. Spiritual Resurrection.

[Jesster]

I will definitely compare vampires with God. There's just as much evidence for both. Unicorns, on the other hand...



We've actually discovered remains of something like them.

[robvalue]

Hello there

My position on gods is very simple. I don't care. They can exist or not exist, makes no difference to me.

Can you tell me why I should care?

Hey Rob.

There is one reason that you might be interested in it; that neuroscience is engrossed in. That various mystics try to explain but fail. And the general public are so confused that they mistake it for a faith, a dogmatic principle, or an unreasonable assumption. In fact they don't understand it in so much as even Daniel Dennet the philosopher, thought of it as something without evidence.

Here's the catch. You have to be born with it or try to develop it through meditation or prayer. After you experience it, that divine reality is what mystics call God. So it's more of a attitude you develop or a temperment. William James, the great psychologist talks about it in his book: The Varieties of Religious Experience. In it he describes ineffability, something that defies expression or explanation of the contents. Undefinable. A subjective experience but based on evidential insight. The next reason is a ideational quality or conceptive. It's a feeling but it's so much more beyond. It turns the experience into a state of knowledge, a kind of comprehension. It does this because your mystical experience is receiving revelation, presage, but whats strange is this experience has a hold of you it has authority. Power and control. But mystical states have impermanence. They don't last long, this is why i believe the Lord Jesus Christ appears to the disciples but the next instant he disappears!

Thanks for your answer. I really don't understand why I should care about any of this though. I'm missing out on a cool experience? And knowledge? What is it that you "know" that I don't? Why do I need to know whatever it is? What use is it?

I've every reason to believe that everything you describe is explainable through psychology and biology, and that nothing special is happening at all. I can most likely experience everything you say by taking drugs, and I don't know how you're meant to tell the difference.

If God wants to interact with me in a sensible way, he is quite welcome to. If instead he sends a middle man to tell me to do a load of things and that I should interpret the results as interaction with him, he can get lost. I have better things to do.

[AceBoogie]

I don't think it's fair to compare vampire or unicorns with God. For example there aren't many people who say they experience unicorns or fairies. It's a non word it has no substance in reality. But with God the experience can be knowledge granting, and in fact confirm his existence. Mysticism is a perceptual thing; a participation with divine realities. In the plural because it can be more than one reality. It is filled with phenomenological content and it's directed towards an object. In my case Jesus. Or Christian symbols and language. Phenomenology refers to a person's perception of "meaning" as opposed to the event as it exists outside of his mind. Lets take for example you're a outsider looking in. It's impossible to do, I don't even know how you do something like that but imagine your on the inside then you can be creative and interpret your framework as to what "feels" right or tactility. It must be said that feeling isn't just a emotion I'm talking about but feeling embraced or held.

I think it's completely fair to compare any god to unicorns or vampires. Both are mythical creatures that we have absolutely no evidence for the existence of. As I said before, the fact that a large group of people believe in something or used to believe in something does not give that something any more or less validity. Historically, VAST amounts of the population have been mistaken about many things, often for long periods of time, until the TRUTH was discovered. As of now, we have no scientific evidence for the existence of god, so as far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing.

Who says the experience of god is knowledge granting? You? How do you know this? How do you KNOW that whatever you're experiencing is god? Here's a hint: you don't. Just because you experience something and FEEL/INTERPRET that experience as god does not make it so. How is this so hard for theists to understand? Your personal experience with the world around you doesn't define the world it only defines YOUR experience with the world.

There are theistic and non theistic mystical experiences. Numinous Theistic Mystical Experiences are dualistic in nature and there's a division between characters, You and God 2 separate objects in the experience. Non Theistic can be a experience of filling one with the universe or nature. Sometimes Theistic intimacy can help you declare "I am God".

Do you think you could explain your experience you had on LSD in words. I would imagine it would be hard. I understand that you may believe my experience of the resurrection is not vernacular but self deceived delusions. In my opinion It means three things. 1. Jesus is a divine reality based off experience
2. Jesus is Lord the object of my reality. 3. Jesus was raised from the dead. Spiritual Resurrection.

So what is your point? Some people have mystical experiences. So?

And no, not EVERY aspect of experiences I've had with hallucinogens can be explained in words, what does that prove? Once again I'm not claiming that hallucinations I've had are anything more than what they are: hallucinations.

If your only proof for god is a 'personal vision' of jesus' supposed resurrection, I would advise you to get some psychological help.

[GUBU]

@Minimalist I think the fact humans created Gods doesn't negate the idea of him. Because the idea exists within our minds. i don't think you can say Jesus is fictitious since he existed. Odin is pretty cool.

Fine then. Which god, we have no evidence for any god's existence and plenty of evidence which suggests gods are not neccessary.

Edit: On Jesus, we have no evidence of his existence, only a claim which was written at best two generations after he supposwdly died. We have more evidence for Apploonius of Tyana.