Answered Prayers as Proof of God

[DANSURP]

If everyone truly believed that once you are dead, you cease to exist in any form forever, they would risk doing alot more in life.

Are you planning to abolish the jails as well? The threat of imprisonment is a far greater deterrent than any silly-ass god. Plenty of murders have been carried out by people who claim 'god' told them to do it.

you are missing my point. Obviously, the law is our current detterent, but you haven't opened your mind to what people think about consequences. I don't kill people and I don't believe in god. Honestly, the law has little to do with why I don't kill. I don't kill because I dont believe in killing. We are all doomed to the same fate whether you are alive for 1 yr or 100 years. We all think about consequences for whatever actions we do and if you dont believe in being punished by going to hell, you are more likely to try to get away with stuff. Religion has the all knowing god who knows how many times you masturbated. You are thinking in modern times while most of society before 1900 got away with murder. People were murdered at a much higher rate before science and technology caught up and getting away with murder is much harder. The deterent back then was religion. This is way too big of a topic to debate as there are so many factors involved. The question before you is if there was no religion, can you say there wouldnt be more murders? Obviously, its just an educated guess, but the people who are not afraid of the law, but of god can only add to the murder total if there was no god. Right now, there are 2 deterents, the law and god. Take away one and there are going to be more.

[cdog]

I mean that what holds people back from doing horrible things like murder besides the law is fear of being punished in the afterlife. I should have phrased it as if the world had no religion or belief in anything after death rather than true atheist. Though it would be one in the same. If everyone truly believed that once you are dead, you cease to exist in any form forever, they would risk doing alot more in life.

Unless you know of any case where a religion has brought with it a sudden and permanent drop in crime and wrongdoing, I see that as a pretty weak argument. As for the law, you seem to dismiss that rather lightly; codes of law going back 4000 years have prohibitions against murder, rape, theft. It's ubiquitous among human societies. This doesn't have to do so much with religion, or fear of punishment in an afterlife (an aspect many religions don't have) as the fact that any society that allowed these things wouldn't continue to exist for very long.

Would you kill somebody if you knew you could get away with it?

[Minimalist]

Obviously, the law is our current detterent, but you haven't opened your mind to what people think about consequences.

And you haven't given any thought at all to the fact that people gleefully kill in the name of their 'god' all the time.

9-11 was not about bad flying, you know.

[DANSURP]

I mean that what holds people back from doing horrible things like murder besides the law is fear of being punished in the afterlife. I should have phrased it as if the world had no religion or belief in anything after death rather than true atheist. Though it would be one in the same. If everyone truly believed that once you are dead, you cease to exist in any form forever, they would risk doing alot more in life.

Unless you know of any case where a religion has brought with it a sudden and permanent drop in crime and wrongdoing, I see that as a pretty weak argument. As for the law, you seem to dismiss that rather lightly; codes of law going back 4000 years have prohibitions against murder, rape, theft. It's ubiquitous among human societies. This doesn't have to do so much with religion, or fear of punishment in an afterlife (an aspect many religions don't have) as the fact that any society that allowed these things wouldn't continue to exist for very long.

Would you kill somebody if you knew you could get away with it?

I already answered I wouldnt kill people myself because I think it is wrong. I haven't talked about people killing in gods name because that doesn't matter. People kill for many reasons and if there is no god, people can't kill in god's name. (the argument was if there was no god or afterlife, would crime go up or down compared to now) I don't know if you read alot about history, but people murdered people all the time as little as 1875 and earlier. There wasn't any way to prove someone killed someone else unless there was a witness. Look at America's own wild west. Murder was against the law going back to the first middle east settlements.

I am going to give up on this thread for the simple reason that there are so many factors that shaped our own civilization right now. I would be happy to debate this via video or phone, but this subject is just too broad.

Like I said before...right now we have law that will prohibits murder as well as our religions. If one deterent isn't strong enough for someone, the other may be. If you take out consequence of punishment by god and know when you die, its truly over, more people will kill. The reasoning isn't complicated. Some people may not care about our criminal law, but fear God will punish them if they kill. With one of the two major deterents removed, why would there be fewer murders? This is my main point and the only one that can be easily reasoned. However, if you believe that murders would go down if it was proven once we are dead, we are dead forever and no god would punish us, then I would like to hear why you would think there would be fewer murders with no fear of retribution from god.

[Captain Scarlet]

A world full of true atheist would have a huge murder rate along with everything else.

I'm curious as to why you would think that.

I mean that what holds people back from doing horrible things like murder besides the law is fear of being punished in the afterlife. I should have phrased it as if the world had no religion or belief in anything after death rather than true atheist. Though it would be one in the same. If everyone truly believed that once you are dead, you cease to exist in any form forever, they would risk doing alot more in life.

Hi DANSURP. I think this is argument is countered by evidence. If this were true then we would see:

1) More atheists commit crimes than the religious, and we don't infact the opposite is true
2) Societies with higher incidence/inclination of/to atheism having higher crimes rates, and we don't infact the opposite is true

Infact the argument I would propose is opposite to your view. Lack of belief in an afterlife, tends people to focus on maximising their own well-being, tends people to maximise good in their society as that benefits them reciprocally. Beleif in an afterlife means people have a lower regard for their current well-being, tends people to disrupt society as they see little reciprocal benefit.

[DANSURP]

Hi DANSURP. I think this is argument is countered by evidence. If this were true then we would see:

1) More atheists commit crimes than the religious, and we don't infact the opposite is true
2) Societies with higher incidence/inclination of/to atheism having higher crimes rates, and we don't infact the opposite is true

Infact the argument I would propose is opposite to your view. Lack of belief in an afterlife, tends people to focus on maximising their own well-being, tends people to maximise good in their society as that benefits them reciprocally. Beleif in an afterlife means people have a lower regard for their current well-being, tends people to disrupt society as they see little reciprocal benefit.


where are you getting your atheism questionnaire for crime exit polling? Atheist are an extremely small demographic and the basis of the question had to do with if there was no god, therefore everyone by default would be an atheist. If I understand what you are stating, you think that I am applying this philsophy to our current status in the world and if you are, I understand what you are saying. My scenario again has to do with a sudden knowledge right now that all the world accepts that there is no afterlife. I am only guessing anyways, I can only assume that as I said, there were 2 deterents before (one of human punishment and one of god afterlife punishment) Take away the god deterent, there has to be more "crime" Since I am only guessing, I could be wrong, but there is no way to prove it.

I do disagree with your view on afterlife people having a lower regard for themselves. I would have exchanged your last sentence with people whohave no belief in afterlife have a lower regard...........

People who believe in an afterlife are more afraid of how they act in this life. Its all about judgment in today's religon. If you anger the god(s) by being immoral, you will rot in the fiery pit of hell forever. The fear of this wrath is what keeps people following the rules. If you don't believe in the afterlife, it would make sense that you would care less how you acted here because there is no consequence after death like the religious believe. Unless I misunderstood religion and breaking all of god's commandments mean a life of eternal joy anyways when you die. I went to church growing up and it was 3 hour never ending sermons. I am pretty sure they taught that living an unholy life leads to hell. I sure cared about how I acted for fear of going to hell. I still had faith until college answered how everything worked. I am done with this topic; I am willing to admit I could be wrong, but I need someone to explain how removing the fear of god as a deterent would make our society safer and better.

[Captain Scarlet]

where are you getting your atheism questionnaire for crime exit polling? Atheist are an extremely small demographic and the basis of the question had to do with if there was no god, therefore everyone by default would be an atheist. If I understand what you are stating, you think that I am applying this philsophy to our current status in the world and if you are, I understand what you are saying. My scenario again has to do with a sudden knowledge right now that all the world accepts that there is no afterlife. I am only guessing anyways, I can only assume that as I said, there were 2 deterents before (one of human punishment and one of god afterlife punishment) Take away the god deterent, there has to be more "crime" Since I am only guessing, I could be wrong, but there is no way to prove it.

I do disagree with your view on afterlife people having a lower regard for themselves. I would have exchanged your last sentence with people whohave no belief in afterlife have a lower regard...........

People who believe in an afterlife are more afraid of how they act in this life. Its all about judgment in today's religon. If you anger the god(s) by being immoral, you will rot in the fiery pit of hell forever. The fear of this wrath is what keeps people following the rules. If you don't believe in the afterlife, it would make sense that you would care less how you acted here because there is no consequence after death like the religious believe. Unless I misunderstood religion and breaking all of god's commandments mean a life of eternal joy anyways when you die. I went to church growing up and it was 3 hour never ending sermons. I am pretty sure they taught that living an unholy life leads to hell. I sure cared about how I acted for fear of going to hell. I still had faith until college answered how everything worked. I am done with this topic; I am willing to admit I could be wrong, but I need someone to explain how removing the fear of god as a deterent would make our society safer and better.

The arguments you present here are simplistic. There is plenty of evidence of reasoned thinking on this subject which flatly counters your assertions. Sophisticted theologians have a different view of hell primarily becuase of the philosophical issues with a perfect creator and justifying etrenal torture. Anyway I suggest you read through available material, personally I did't take any crime exit polls but there is research out there and I suggest you avail yourself of it:

Published works: Gregory Paul study link to the published paper http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html, or the Global Peace Index. There are others.

For a view of the secular development of morality and why humans rely on other humans, you may want to look at Contractarianism, under the philosphy of ethics.

Taken together all the evidence and thinking on this suggests that in the absence of other factors like totalitrianism and relgion, that humans work together for the common good, becuase it is also to their advantage to do so. Whereas totalitrianism and religion provides the excuse for violence, repression, wars, murders, theft, becuase people beleive they are acting for a non-existent higher moral purpose. Societies like Sweden are good examples of a dominantly atheistic society with very high societal wellbeing.

[Skipper]

DANSURP, your theory is countered by evidence. Countries that have higher populations of atheists or non believers do not have any higher number of crimes or murders. It's in fact the opposite. And prison populations have been surveyed before in the U.K. and there is a disproportionately low number of Atheists in prison compared to the wider population of Britain. Now it can be argued that this dosen't show the full picture as a lot of people did not list a belief, Atheists or otherwise, but it certainly dosen't show your theory to be any truer.

Also, highly religious populations are generally from countries where education standards are lower. And people who are less well educated generally make up higher proportions of prison populations. Now, I'd say a more likely situation to the one you are suggesting is, as education standards increase, more people turn away from religion and to forms of Atheism, these people being more intelligent are less likely to commit crimes and work together for greater advancement and a more peaceful society.

Obviously we don't know how it will turn out for sure, but all the evidence and past trends certainly do not point towards a society that would be more violent just because of it's lack of belief in a made up magic sky daddy.

[Lethe]

Like I said before... right now we have law that will prohibits murder as well as our religions. If one deterrent isn't strong enough for someone, the other may be. If you take out consequence of punishment by god and know when you die, its truly over, more people will kill.

S. E. Cupp?!

The reasoning isn't complicated. Some people may not care about our criminal law, but fear God will punish them if they kill. With one of the two major deterrents removed, why would there be fewer murders?

Except they don't fear punishment from a deity for murder. In fact many interpret their preferred deity to encourage murder. Religion isn't a deterrent in the least, it's merely a means of justification for one's actions. You can't reinterpret the law to mean what you want it to mean to justify any action you commit (unless your lawyer has mad skillz), but you can easily do so with religion.

[Strongbad]

Its all about judgment in today's religon. If you anger the god(s) by being immoral, you will rot in the fiery pit of hell forever...The fear of this wrath is what keeps people following the rules... I went to church growing up and it was 3 hour never ending sermons. I am pretty sure they taught that living an unholy life leads to hell. I sure cared about how I acted for fear of going to hell.

Here's another counter to your theory that religion prevents crime out of fear of punishment in the "afterlife". In case you didn't hear when you went to church, the vast majority of religious people believe (at least here in the US, where the majority are Christian) that no matter how many crimes you commit, or how heinous the crimes are, you can still be "forgiven" and enter the heaven. All you have to do is "accept Jesus as your personal savior" and *POOF*, all of your murders, rapes, and other "sins" are erased, and you will live in God's glory for ever and ever.

So I would argue that religion actually encourages crime, because you really can get away with it!