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The Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
#21
RE: The Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
There is no historical evidence of the resurrection of Jesus. All there is are the FAITH documents of believers.
That is not evidence.

However if you DO buy it, then you can take Bucky's Resurrection Challenge.

I present to you a series of events that occurred in what is now, one of the United States of America.

The Governor of the state in question became involved.
A court was established.
Witnesses were carefully examined and cross-examined, by the best experts of the day.
Evidence was gathered.
Many people confessed in public to the officials of the court.
The entire proceeding was documented with thousands of sworn affidavits, court documents, interviews and related proceedings.
Sufficient evidence was established by intelligent men and women of good faith, that the declarations of the witnesses were true, and that these declarations should in all reasonableness result in the established legal consequences that reasonable good adult men and women thought were perfectly legitimate.

What evidence did they have that the assertions concerning what they said they saw and were convinced of were really true ?

1. Hundreds if not thousands of people were involved in concluding that what they said they saw and concluded was actually true.
2. The witnesses provided sworn testimony in court, sworn affidavits which we can look at today, and affirmed they were completely utterly convinced that what they were saying was totally completely true.
3. The witnesses came from all social strata, and every diverse background, including the most highly educated of the day.
4. These witnesses included judges, magistrates, the governor of the state, and family members of those about whom the assertions were made.
5. Many involved had much to lose if the assertions were to be found true. The consequences would impact many in very personal ways, if found to be true, thus had no conflict of interest, or reasin to lie. Many could lose beloved spouses and family members and friends about whom they cared a great deal.
6. The proceedings were thorough, exhaustive investigations. They deliberately gathered evidence. They made every effort to sort out truth from fallacy. They went to every possible length to actually discern the facts.
7. There are numerous artifacts from the time, and many documents from the proceedings we can review in person today.
8. These proceedings happened, not 2000 years ago, but a mere few hundred years ago. The literacy rate was far far higher than in ancient Israel.
9. For claimed events from 2000 years ago, there are no actual original documents of any kind. None at all. Only copies from centuries later.
10. For the events in question we have sworn documented court testimony, not just word of mouth transmission.
11. A truck full of documents from the proceedings exist at the University of Virginia Library. You can go see the testimony of the eye-witnesses for yourself, today.
12. By any measure or method, the quantity and quality of the evidence for the events in question FAR FAR FAR outweigh the quality of the evidence for the events in Jerusalem 2000 years ago.
13. Anyone who claims they have good evidence to support belief in Jesus, his death, and resurrection, or any miracle thought to have happened today, IF they are in any way a consistent, honest, logical and a reasonably thoughtful person, they MUST also accept :

That of the 250 people accused, 19 women in Salem Massachusetts, including Sarah Goode, and Rebekah Nurse, The Witches of Salem, really were actually witches, and were justly condemned and executed for performing demon magic.

I have a long academic paper showing that in the context of Hebrew culture, the word in Paul translated as "risen" should be translated as "exalted" or "raised up" as it's the same word used in Luke when he says "this child shall be the cause of the RISE and fall of many in Israel" It's a change in status. It does not mean he rose from the dead. Rising from the dead was IN NO WAY a part of Jewish apocalyptic traditions. Paul was a Jewish apocalyptic. I will find it and post it. I hope you know Koine Greek.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell  Popcorn

Militant Atheist Commie Evolutionist 
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#22
RE: The Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
^I once spoke to someone (online, not IRL, thank goodness) who claimed that the evidence for Jesus is stronger than the evidence for Abraham Lincoln.

My response was something along the lines of, 'You've got photographs of Jesus? Trot 'em out - you'll make a fortune!'

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#23
RE: The Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
jesus is a figmint of your imagination. Your storybook fantasies are just plain silly. How could anyone with a 1/1000 of a brain even consider this malarkey to be anything other than the delusional rantings of frightened clowns with no actual understanding of how reality works?
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#24
RE: The Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
(June 18, 2023 at 3:08 am)Nishant Xavier Wrote: So, the question becomes, is there Good Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ?

No. Your own sources do suggest that a man named Jesus started the religion. That's it. Hardly impressive and they were writing decades to centuries after his crucifiction. Zero eye witless accounts.
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#25
RE: The Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
(July 8, 2023 at 5:40 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: ^I once spoke to someone (online, not IRL, thank goodness) who claimed that the evidence for Jesus is stronger than the evidence for Abraham Lincoln.

My response was something along the lines of, 'You've got photographs of Jesus? Trot 'em out - you'll make a fortune!'

Boru

"Religious fanatics will little note nor long remember what we say here today." Hehe
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#26
RE: The Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
(July 8, 2023 at 8:13 am)Paleophyte Wrote:
(June 18, 2023 at 3:08 am)Nishant Xavier Wrote: So, the question becomes, is there Good Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ?

No. Your own sources do suggest that a man named Jesus started the religion. That's it. Hardly impressive and they were writing decades to centuries after his crucifiction. Zero eye witless accounts.

Agree. 
One of the accounts says 500 people also rose with him and walked around Jerusalem ... yet not one secular source records anything about it. 500 zombies. 
Not one Jew (who recorded earthquakes and other significant events) says anything about an earthquake or the tearing of the temple curtain, spontaneously. 
That would have been a monumental occurrence for the Jews in Jerusalem. At the very end of Matthew it says many saw him, yet doubted anyway. 
What they were seeing was not a physical risen body. The resurrection is self-refuting. 

As a matter of fact, the literary content of the gospels are the concerns of the Jews late in the First Century
after the temple destruction, not early First Century. For decades, (if not centuries) the early members of the Christian sect were Jews ... members of "The Way" sect in Judaism. At the end of the First Century, the Jewish High Priest required the reading of the "Expulsion Curses" during every service, against the members of "The Way". They were still Jews. In his Christmas sermon in the year 400 CE, the Archbishop of Constantinople, (Saint) John Chrysostom, tells HIS congregation to stop attending the synagogue. They were still Jews. Something is very screwy about the orthodox time line here. (We have a copy of that sermon.)
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell  Popcorn

Militant Atheist Commie Evolutionist 
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#27
RE: The Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
(July 8, 2023 at 10:20 am)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(July 8, 2023 at 8:13 am)Paleophyte Wrote: No. Your own sources do suggest that a man named Jesus started the religion. That's it. Hardly impressive and they were writing decades to centuries after his crucifiction. Zero eye witless accounts.

Agree. 
One of the accounts says 500 people also rose with him and walked around Jerusalem ... yet not one secular source records anything about it. 500 zombies. 
Not one Jew (who recorded earthquakes and other significant events) says anything about an earthquake or the tearing of the temple curtain, spontaneously. 
That would have been a monumental occurrence for the Jews in Jerusalem. At the very end of Matthew it says many saw him, yet doubted anyway. 
What they were seeing was not a physical risen body. The resurrection is self-refuting. 

As a matter of fact, the literary content of the gospels are the concerns of the Jews late in the First Century
after the temple destruction, not early First Century. For decades, (if not centuries) the early members of the Christian sect were Jews ... members of "The Way" sect in Judaism. At the end of the First Century, the Jewish High Priest required the reading of the "Expulsion Curses" during every service, against the members of "The Way". They were still Jews. In his Christmas sermon in the year 400 CE, the Archbishop of Constantinople, (Saint) John Chrysostom, tells HIS congregation to stop attending the synagogue. They were still Jews. Something is very screwy about the orthodox time line here. (We have a copy of that sermon.)

This whole 'argument' with our new friend NX makes me tired.

Just wanted to stop by and say "Hi Bucky!".
  
“If you are the smartest person in the room, then you are in the wrong room.” — Confucius
                                      
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#28
RE: The Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The Resurrection of Jesus .. a relook


Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell  Popcorn

Militant Atheist Commie Evolutionist 
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#29
RE: The Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
(July 8, 2023 at 8:13 am)Paleophyte Wrote:
(June 18, 2023 at 3:08 am)Nishant Xavier Wrote: So, the question becomes, is there Good Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ?

No. Your own sources do suggest that a man named Jesus started the religion. That's it. Hardly impressive and they were writing decades to centuries after his crucifiction. Zero eye witless accounts.

I do respectfully disagree. Jesus is said to have said that there were people standing there who would see the end-times. He also said that not one jot or tittle would be changed until all things were accomplished. They still aren't. Jesus was an apocalyptic Jew, as were many in his day, including Paul ... during the Roman Occupation. When the end-times did not happen, and the temple was destroyed, they had to rationalize this to remain in power. Jesus never intended to start a new religion. His later followers HAD to, to rationalize what they were seeing all around them. After the temple was destroyed, Judaism was adrift. At the end of the century they were mostly concerned about how to be a faithful Jew, without the temple. That's when the rabbis said "Love God and love your neighbor". That's what's in the gospels ... the concerns of the Jews at THE END of the First Century.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell  Popcorn

Militant Atheist Commie Evolutionist 
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#30
RE: The Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
(June 18, 2023 at 3:08 am)Nishant Xavier Wrote: Or, as New Testament scholar N.T. Wright put it: "That is why, as a historian, I cannot explain the rise of early Christianity unless Jesus Christ rose from the dead, leaving an Empty Tomb behind in Him".

.

As a historian he should have been asking why Matt and Mark said Pete first saw the risen Josh in the Galilee while Luke and John said Pete first saw the risen Josh in Jerusalem.
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