Atheism, Deism & Christianity

[lucent]

The thread is entitled Atheism, Christianity, and Deism. I expected a formal debate on our differing beliefs. If your belief is off limits then we don't really have anything to talk about.

How can you say that Deism was "off limits" ?? I talked to you about it in depth. I answered your questions several times over. There simply was nothing more to tell you and you refused to accept my answers.

You just said you're not prepared to defend Deism, didn't you? I haven't even gotten to my real argument, I have just been trying to figure out what you actually believe, because different Deists believe different things.

And the answers you gave me have all been fairly evasive..from what I have gleaned..Deism is an illogical belief that you embrace because you like having a tiny bit of faith and you really don't care about God and he doesnt care about you, and none of it really matters anyway. Did I miss anything?

Nope not a damn thing ... So why do you keep ASKING?!?!

Once again for the 4th or 5th time (give or take), I don't defend Deism because I just don't care and there is NO evidence ... just like there is none for Christianity.


hmmm.... maybe you can never understand me. Your religion is a huge part of your life. My belief in God is an afterthought. You love god because you think he loves you. You've gotta stop projecting your reasoning for your god onto me. I worship no one. I pray to no one. And unlike you ... I NEED NO EVIDENCE!


(by the way, telling me that I'm evasive is just so untrue. I could not BE more forthcoming about my views on God)

Well, if that's all there is to your belief, then you have no right to critisize anyone else. You have actually admitted there is absolutely no reason to believe what you do, and it is actually contrary to logic. Even if Christianity wasn't true, it would still be superior to your blind faith.

I don't *need* evidence, I *have* evidence. I am not clinging to a belief in hopes that it is true, I came to a belief because I was convinced it was true. Little bit of a difference.

[Cinjin]

Well, if that's all there is to your belief, then you have no right to critisize anyone else.

If christians and muslims give themselves the "right" to kill people who inhabit the land that god promised them or better yet, simply don't agree with them ... than guess what ... I'm going to go ahead and give myself the right to criticize stupidity.

You have actually admitted there is absolutely no reason to believe what you do, and it is actually contrary to logic.

Yep, that is the paradox of who I am, and unlike you and all your brothers-in-christ, I'm not dishonest about it and pretend that some old manuscript justifies my one sole illogical belief.

Even if Christianity wasn't true, it would still be superior to your blind faith.

That's ok. 1.4 Billion Muslims KNOW that they are superior to your faith in every way. I have no problem with you believing yours is superior to mine. None whatsoever. Remember? - I don't care.

I don't *need* evidence, I *have* evidence.

No you don't. Not a single god in the history of mankind, nor the alleged powers of your retarded messiah, has ever been irrefutably proven to exist. The "evidence" you have is only evidence to you. You can believe what ever you want, but silly dreams and an ancient book of lies don't count as evidence to anyone in the rational scientific world. You should just stick to blind faith.

I am not clinging to a belief in hopes that it is true, I came to a belief because I was convinced it was true. Little bit of a difference.

Clinging? Hopes? That's not remotely accurate, as I don't care if I'm wrong.

Ironically enough though, the one thing that did my convincing of my God is the same thing that convinced you of your god. I wonder if that means I should say thank you!?!?

[lucent]

If christians and muslims give themselves the "right" to kill people who inhabit the land that god promised them or better yet, simply don't agree with them ... than guess what ... I'm going to go ahead and give myself the right to criticize stupidity.

Where are you getting this from? Christians don't have the right to kill anyone, nor are we promised any land. All we're doing is waiting for Christ to establish His Kingdom. We have no marching orders besides to share the gospel.

So no, you don't have the right to criticize. In the sphere of rationality, blind faith has the least amount of legitimacy (read: none).

You have actually admitted there is absolutely no reason to believe what you do, and it is actually contrary to logic.
Yep, that is the paradox of who I am, and unlike you and all your brothers-in-christ, I'm not dishonest about it and pretend that some old manuscript justifies my one sole illogical belief.

It's not "one sole illogical belief", it is at the nexus of your entire worldview. It is a lens through which all things are perceived, and if you don't see the implications of that, you're not very self-aware.

I don't *need* evidence, I *have* evidence.
No you don't. Not a single god in the history of mankind, nor the alleged powers of your retarded messiah, has ever been irrefutably proven to exist. The "evidence" you have is only evidence to you. You can believe what ever you want, but silly dreams and an ancient book of lies don't count as evidence to anyone in the rational scientific world. You should just stick to blind faith.

Do you know how ironic your statement is? I should give up what the scientific world considers irrational so I can embrace what the scientific world considers irrational? I have news for you, you're not a member of the "rational" scientific world when you believe in God. I have further news for you, that the secular world doesn't have exclusive domain on reason. It doesn't take blind faith to know there is a God because it is obvious:

Romans 1:20

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Belief in God is logical, reasonable and rational, it is the first order of understanding from whence these things are derived. Anyone denying there is a God is not using the faculties of reason, or logic, or rationality.

You don't have blind faith in God, you are just in denial of who He is. The world says "follow your heart" and you listen:

Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

The secular world says that God doesn't exist. You know that isn't true but you listen to them anyway:

Psalm 14:1

The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

That isn't rationality.

I am not clinging to a belief in hopes that it is true, I came to a belief because I was convinced it was true. Little bit of a difference.

Clinging? Hopes? That's not remotely accurate, as I don't care if I'm wrong.

You're going to care very much if you are wrong:

Revelation 20:15

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Ironically enough though, the one thing that did my convincing of my God is the same thing that convinced you of your god. I wonder if that means I should say thank you!?!?

What are you referring to, specifically?

[Cinjin]

If christians and muslims give themselves the "right" to kill people who inhabit the land that god promised them or better yet, simply don't agree with them ... than guess what ... I'm going to go ahead and give myself the right to criticize stupidity.

Where are you getting this from? Christians don't have the right to kill anyone, nor are we promised any land. All we're doing is waiting for Christ to establish His Kingdom. We have no marching orders besides to share the gospel.
So no, you don't have the right to criticize. In the sphere of rationality, blind faith has the least amount of legitimacy (read: none).

First of all cherry picker, you didn't address the Muslims, secondly, and more importantly, perhaps you should read the Book of Joshua. God specifically entitled the Hebrews to kill men, women and children and take their lands and possessions. How anyone thinks you have any legitimate points in these debates is beyond me, but somehow you have supporters for this drivel you've been posting.

You have actually admitted there is absolutely no reason to believe what you do, and it is actually contrary to logic.
Yep, that is the paradox of who I am, and unlike you and all your brothers-in-christ, I'm not dishonest about it and pretend that some old manuscript justifies my one sole illogical belief.

It's not "one sole illogical belief", it is at the nexus of your entire worldview. It is a lens through which all things are perceived, and if you don't see the implications of that, you're not very self-aware.

This is just your own verbose opinion, and you are welcome to it. It is completely inaccurate and it means nothing to me. You cannot prove or validate your own foolish opinion any more than I can mine.

I don't *need* evidence, I *have* evidence.
No you don't. Not a single god in the history of mankind, nor the alleged powers of your retarded messiah, has ever been irrefutably proven to exist. The "evidence" you have is only evidence to you. You can believe what ever you want, but silly dreams and an ancient book of lies don't count as evidence to anyone in the rational scientific world. You should just stick to blind faith.

Do you know how ironic your statement is? I should give up what the scientific world considers irrational so I can embrace what the scientific world considers irrational? I have news for you, you're not a member of the "rational" scientific world when you believe in God. I have further news for you, that the secular world doesn't have exclusive domain on reason.

Since I ALREADY ADMITTED that belief in God is irrational and that I have no evidence for it - my statement is NOT ironic. You do know what ironic means right? What's really awesome is now your resort to CYCLICAL PROOF and PREACHING:

(FIRST, THE CYCLICAL "PROOF")

It doesn't take blind faith to know there is a God because it is obvious:

Romans 1:20

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Belief in God is logical, reasonable and rational, it is the first order of understanding from whence these things are derived. Anyone denying there is a God is not using the faculties of reason, or logic, or rationality.

You don't have blind faith in God, you are just in denial of who He is. The world says "follow your heart" and you listen:

Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

The secular world says that God doesn't exist. You know that isn't true but you listen to them anyway:

Psalm 14:1

The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

That isn't rationality.

I can't BELIEVE there are people on this website who actually claim you have me on the ropes with this bull shit.

I am not clinging to a belief in hopes that it is true, I came to a belief because I was convinced it was true. Little bit of a difference.

Clinging? Hopes? That's not remotely accurate, as I don't care if I'm wrong.

(AND NOW THE PREACHING)

You're going to care very much if you are wrong:

Revelation 20:15

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I certainly won't up your warn your for preaching, because I am involved in the conversation, but this is preaching and you need to chill.

Ironically enough though, the one thing that did my convincing of my God is the same thing that convinced you of your god. I wonder if that means I should say thank you!?!?

What are you referring to, specifically?

The BS that you believe "proves" god exists is the same BS that lead me to believe that mine was far more likely.

[lucent]

First of all cherry picker, you didn't address the Muslims, secondly, and more importantly, perhaps you should read the Book of Joshua. God specifically entitled the Hebrews to kill men, women and children and take their lands and possessions. How anyone thinks you have any legitimate points in these debates is beyond me, but somehow you have supporters for this drivel you've been posting.

I have read the book of Joshua, and that was about God fulfilling the old covenant with the jews. Christians are under the New Covenant and there aren't any promises of land. So no, you don't have the right to criticize us. There is nothing about your belief which makes it more valid than mine; rather, there are many things which make it less valid.

This is just your own verbose opinion, and you are welcome to it. It is completely inaccurate and it means nothing to me. You cannot prove or validate your own foolish opinion any more than I can mine.

I don't need to prove, or validate it. It's just a basic fact that your belief about God informs your entire world view, and colors everything that you see and experience.

Since I ALREADY ADMITTED that belief in God is irrational and that I have no evidence for it - my statement is NOT ironic. You do know what ironic means right? What's really awesome is now your resort to CYCLICAL PROOF and PREACHING:

I can't BELIEVE there are people on this website who actually claim you have me on the ropes with this bull shit.

I do have you on the ropes because you don't have any credibility. You have admitted that you believe what you do contrary to logic and reason, that it is totally irrational, but you choose to believe it anyway because it makes you feel good. Besides being willfully ignorant, and intellectually insipid, this puts you in the position of not having a leg to stand on.

I could be quoting from Goodnight Moon and it would still be at least equally valid as anything you could say about the subject. So long as I have blind faith that it was an inspired work, we would be on equal terms.

So no, it's not cyclical proof when I quote the bible, because the proof that it is a legitimate work far exceeds your standard for evidence.

The BS that you believe "proves" god exists is the same BS that lead me to believe that mine was far more likely.

Your God is about as likely as an honest politician. What really happened is that you ran away from your responsibility to the true God, probably to rebel against your parents, but mostly so you could do whatever you wanted, and you pushed him as far back into your mind as you possibly could, but you couldn't get rid of Him, so now you pretend He is some nameless faceless entity that doesnt know anything about you, and certainly wouldnt make any demands of you, so you're still free to do whatever you want and so you can "stop thinking about all of this bullshit". Yes, that's exactly what you did, you stopped thinking. If you thought about it too hard you might realize that not only have you shamefully betrayed God, but you're also going to have to answer for it. Instead of admitting that you're wrong, and asking for forgiveness, what do you do? You curse His name. Wake up, because He isn't the one in the wrong, you are, and none of the excuses you invent are going to amount to a hill of beans when you're standing before His face.

[Cinjin]

I have little-to-nothing to respond to. Your entire post is merely a reiteration of the last one and once again, just your own opinion of why I do and believe the things I do. You have no idea who I am or why I have lived the life I have. Your statements mean nothing because there is NO WAY for you to qualify them. And by the way, don't get too excited about finding out there are two people who think you have me on the ropes. They are as delusional as you are.

This is the only thing I have to address:

What really happened is that you ran away from your responsibility to the true God, probably to rebel against your parents, but mostly so you could do whatever you wanted, and you pushed him as far back into your mind as you possibly could, but you couldn't get rid of Him, so now you pretend He is some nameless faceless entity that doesnt know anything about you, and certainly wouldnt make any demands of you, so you're still free to do whatever you want and so you can "stop thinking about all of this bullshit". Yes, that's exactly what you did, you stopped thinking. If you thought about it too hard you might realize that not only have you shamefully betrayed God, but you're also going to have to answer for it. Instead of admitting that you're wrong, and asking for forgiveness, what do you do? You curse His name. Wake up, because He isn't the one in the wrong, you are, and none of the excuses you invent are going to amount to a hill of beans when you're standing before His face.

You really have finally lost your privileges with me on this last post. None of that inventive history about me is remotely correct, and (no surprise) nothing you say can be verified on ANY level. I didn't want to sit down and write all pissed off about the ridiculous, arrogant, and unsubstantiated claims you made about me and my life so I took several hours to mull it over. I had a paragraph of about equal length and I have to be honest, originally I still ended up ripping you and your god a new asshole ..... but as I nearly finished, I proofread my thoughts and found it gave me no comfort to destroy such a foolish post written by a self-proclaimed sheep. What point would there be? So I deleted it and wrote what you're reading now.

I don't want to be like you ... telling everyone else that they're wrong and that they're going to regret it. I don't want to judge people all my life. i want to live and let live and as I read my post, next to yours, I realized that I had very quickly become nearly the same as you. Well fuck that! You go ahead and enjoy your silly angry desert god. I hope he brings you great happiness and you live a life of total contentment so that you can at least find a few days a week to leave the rest of us alone. Oh and someday, if you die before I do and you go to meet your god. You tell him that I forgive him, and that I'm not going to hold any hard feelings.