Atheism, Deism & Christianity

[Cinjin]

Lucent and I began a mild debate unintentionally by way of PMs. The two of us have decided to place this on the forum simply to have the ability to respond back and forth without need of PMs and the limitations of that process. This debate has no more importance than any other thread and we are certainly not here to declare a winner. It is a private conversation that you are certainly welcome to view if you so choose, but for this particular thread, you will not be able to give your input.

To bring both you and us up to speed, I have posted some slightly edited messages from our ongoing conversation ...

So you enforce some rules but not others, and atheists are favored..got it.

(EDITED)
You're partially right. This is an atheists forum. ATHEIST. So of course they are favored, just like christians are favored at a Christian forum, which by the way does not give atheists even CLOSE to the leeway that we give you here.

Unlike I'm sure you've been told, most atheists don't hate you. Yes, most of us here hate your religion - no surprise there, but you are welcome here and I hope you find a way to accept the rules and work with them.

PM RESPONSE:

I have no trouble with following the rules. I am sorry to inform you though that more often than not, the atheists I meet attack and ridicule me, tell me I am intellectually deficient, and go out of their way to say the most perverse and hateful things about God that they possibily can. That's the sad reality of it. I have found that a lot of people mislabel themselves as atheists when they are in fact anti-theists. Of course, I know they don't really hate me because they don't know me..it's much like the angry person who has a problem with a company and calls up customer service to chew out the support rep. I have just resigned myself to this treatment; I expect it from atheists, and when someone treats me like a human being, it is a nice suprise.

PM RESPONSE:

(EDITED)
I have found most theists (Christians specifically) bring it on themselves. The ones who do well here, understand three things very well.
1. Ridicule of you and your god are going to be common place and will lessen over time. Get use to it or move on.
2. Blasphemy is only blasphemy to the believer. This should not be a surprise since christians don't get remotely offended when we mock Allah.
3. There is no tangible proof of god. Faith does not require proof so why bother fighting so hard to sell it to an atheist.

Theists often feel picked on here - and yet, they are still here. Why? If you're a theist, you have to ask yourself why you're on a website where you feel hated. We certainly wonder why. We have found that many theists lie to themselves as much as they lie to us and find that in the end they were only ever here to tell us all how wrong we are and how we're going to burn in hell. Many people take great pleasure in condemning others to any fate they see fit.

You can imagine how old this gets. There is NOTHING that you can offer us that we have not heard thousands of times before. Nothing. Furthermore, there is no proof of god, so why bother? Have your beliefs and enjoy them. We certainly don't care. What is infuriating is theists who come in here immediately throwing their "righteous wisdom" around and pretending that they're just here to have intelligent conversation, when we KNOW differently.

Many of us, myself included, are extremely well-versed in the scriptures and the history of Christianity and if you're going to debate guys like us, (Min, Rhythm, DP, etc.) you better damn well be able to back it up, cause those who can't, or simply use rhetoric from the Bible, get insulted and their ass handed to them. Then of course come whining to us and crying how they can't get a fair shake and all the atheists are mean. When in reality, the atheists were far better prepared, far better educated, with actual documented history and the christian in question simply had nothing to stand on.

My point I guess? Once you come to the realization that your religion can be important to you without it having to be important to the rest of us - you'll be a theist worth having around. What I mean by that ... one that respects the fact that other people don't have to believe the way you do.

PM ADD. RESPONSE:

... the atheists I meet attack and ridicule me, tell me I am intellectually deficient, and go out of their way to say the most perverse and hateful things about God that they possibly can ... Of course, I know they don't really hate me because they don't know me ... I have just resigned myself to this treatment; I expect it from atheists, and when someone treats me like a human being, it is a nice surprise.

(EDITED)
By the way, it's the same for us. It's a massive surprise when a christian offers us the respect we have earned. Imagine being told every other day that you're going to burn in hell, and not only being told that, but being told by an idiot that has never even read the entirety of his Bible. Better yet, imagine being told that by Muslims and Jews as well - only after arguing with each other about who's hell we're going to burn in. Add in the hundreds of denominations of all these religions and you get the idea of why we are so very angry. No proof exists and yet they try to sell it to us like a cold hard fact, when even they might be subscribing to the wrong religion.

All anybody really wants in this life is a little respect. This is how atheists (and deists) feel: Believe whatever you want. We don't care in the least ... just stop forcing it on everyone else. We never get Buddhists in here trying to slam their religion down our throat … it’s not a “theist” thing.

We're not anti-theist. If we were anti-anything, it would be anti-christian/muslim, because they refuse to live and let live.

---

PM RESPONSE:

Atheists certainly don't live and let live. The communities of atheists I have found are frequently on the attack, raiding Christian websites and actively proselytizing, trying to convert people. All they seem to do all day is talk about how stupid they think theists are, and how to undermine them.

It's also confusing to me that you're acting like I have invaded your home. Why in the world do you have a debate forum if you don't want to debate theists? Where are there sections in this forum to discuss the various religions and beliefs?

I give respect to everyone I meet, because I see all people as being in the image of God. I definitely do not get the same treatment from atheists. Or deists for that matter..you both act very similiar except of course that deists don't deny God, they just deny my God. To me a deist is just an atheist who can't deny there is a spirit. Other than that, I see no practical difference. Perhaps you can enlighten me, but isn't deism just a denial of Gods person and character? Isn't it just saying.."I'm intellectually honest enough to admit there is a God..but that is as far as I am going to go"?

PM RESPONSE:

Atheists certainly don't live and let live. The communities of atheists I have found are frequently on the attack, raiding Christian websites and actively proselytizing, trying to convert people. All they seem to do all day is talk about how stupid they think theists are, and how to undermine them.

I agree. Some atheists are assholes. Some christians are assholes. My point was not that atheists are somehow perfect, but rather that christians hold themselves above our actions when theirs are equally the same (and even more offensive in my opinion).

It's also confusing to me that you're acting like I have invaded your home. Why in the world do you have a debate forum if you don't want to debate theists? Where are there sections in this forum to discuss the various religions and beliefs?

You have not invaded my home nor have I given you that impression. In fact I have stated several times that we would like you to stay and that you can even throw out a few insults as long as you stay on point and don't preach. We encourage debate. We do NOT encourage preaching and I will not apologize for this. What you and I are doing right now is debating so your point is completely mute.

I give respect to everyone I meet, because I see all people as being in the image of God.

I don't need the image of God to give you respect and even saying that implies that atheists are not capable of respect - which is some more of that insulting behavior I mentioned in my last PM.

I definitely do not get the same treatment from atheists. Or deists for that matter..you both act very similiar except of course that deists don't deny God, they just deny my God.

I already told you that atheists get preferred treatment on an ATHEIST site. Expecting more is ridiculous as your brothers in christ would not offer us equal treatment on their sites. I know this for a fact as I have been treated horribly on christian sites - and even banned for nothing more than asking a question about scripture.

To me a deist is just an atheist who can't deny there is a spirit. Other than that, I see no practical difference.

To me a christian is just a muslim born on the wrong continent. Other than that, I see no practical difference. You see? It doesn't matter what I think, you're still going to hold your faith in the same regard as you always have. So will I, regardless of what you think.

Perhaps you can enlighten me, but isn't deism just a denial of Gods person and character?

All the established religions of the world are considered "revealed religions". Deism is considered "natural religion". In other words, we don't pretend to know God. We don't assign him a personality or the human attributes that yours and many other religions assign him/her/it. To do so is dishonest as we believe there is no way to know the Creator of the universe. If you feel that this is a denial of your god's person and character, than feel free to thinks so. Obviously we do indeed deny your god's character, and all the world's gods for that matter. On a side note, you'll notice that all the world's gods, especially yours, are all-powerful amazing beings that have never been proven to exist and yet somehow, amazingly enough, all have painfully human characteristics. Jealousy, wrath, envy, kindness, mercy, vengeance, etc. It is obvious to a deist that any god that has human characteristics, especially so many horrible ones, is a concoction of the human mind. A made up entity.

I am not telling you this to convert you, as we believe that your soul is already spoken for regardless of what you believe. I'm only telling you because you asked. I couldn't care less what you choose to believe, just as long as you keep it to yourself.

Isn't it just saying.."I'm intellectually honest enough to admit there is a God..but that is as far as I am going to go"?

No. There's more to it than just what you choose to believe.

PM RESPONSE:

I don't need the image of God to give you respect and even saying that implies that atheists are not capable of respect - which is some more of that insulting behavior I mentioned in my last email.

Well, you're speaking to a former agnostic. I acknowledge that you are capable of being respectful for other reasons. I give universal respect for the reason I gave, even to people who are being disrepectful to me. It's not just a reason..like, oh I must give respect to this person because they are in the image of God. It's that I experience that everyone is in the image of God that respect comes automatically. I fully acknowledge atheists, agnostics, deists etc are capable of moral behavior and human decency, because I believe everyone has a god given conscience which tells them right from wrong.

I already told you that atheists get preferred treatment on an ATHEIST site. Expecting more is ridiculous as your brothers in christ would not offer us equal treatment on their sites. I know this for a fact as I have been treated horribly on christian sites - and even banned for nothing more than asking a question about scripture.

I'm sure that is true. I'm on several Christian forums where that is not true, though, and atheists have their own sections and are welcome to ask questions. I don't expect atheists to treat me any better than dirt, so that isn't the issue. I was just remarking that it is very common for me to receive that kind of treatment. It's not anything that needs to be dwelled on. It doesn't really bother me.

I'll address your replies about religion on the forum.

[lucent]

All the established religions of the world are considered "revealed religions". Deism is considered "natural religion". In other words, we don't pretend to know God. We don't assign him a personality or the human attributes that yours and many other religions assign him/her/it. To do so is dishonest as we believe there is no way to know the Creator of the universe. If you feel that this is a denial of your god's person and character, than feel free to thinks so. Obviously we do indeed deny your god's character, and all the world's gods for that matter. On a side note, you'll notice that all the world's gods, especially yours, are all-powerful amazing beings that have never been proven to exist and yet somehow, amazingly enough, all have painfully human characteristics. Jealousy, wrath, envy, kindness, mercy, vengeance, etc. It is obvious to a deist that any god that has human characteristics, especially so many horrible ones, is a concoction of the human mind. A made up entity.

Well, on the flipside of this statement, we have the fact that man is created in Gods image. So, the reason that both God and man have some similar characteristics is because there is a likeness between them. This is not to imply an equality. The characteristics of God are transcendent of man, and the emotions that we have cannot be contrasted to what God might feel. It is only to say that we were patterned after Him in some respect. God also anthropomorphises Himself, most notably in the person of Jesus Christ, so that we can better relate to Him.

I agree that the way that human emotions can sometimes be expressed is quite savage and shameful. However, since humanity is inherently corrupt this isn't surprising. So, the way human beings express their feelings isn't good evidence to suggest that the mere fact of having feelings is some kind of deficiency on Gods part. It would only be evidence if it could be proven that these feelings were inconsistant with His other characteristics, such as holiness, goodness and perfection.

I am not telling you this to convert you, as we believe that your soul is already spoken for regardless of what you believe. I'm only telling you because you asked. I couldn't care less what you choose to believe, just as long as you keep it to yourself.

I would ask what you believe will happen to my soul and what evidence do you have for it?

Now that the reply is out of the way, I want to say first of all that my goal in this debate is to have a civil discussion about our beliefs, free from acrimony. This is my position:

I am a former lifetime agnostic. When I came to the realization that there is a higher power, I became a Theist. After 7 or 8 years I converted to Christianity. I became a Christian because I received revelation that the bible was true, and this before I read or understood anything about it. I was not converted by anyone, in fact not one person had ever witnessed to me in my entire life. I came to the faith independently, because of revelation I had received about God.

I am a fundemental, bible believing Christian. I believe in a literal 6 day creation and the literal truth of Gods word.

So, I guess I'll begin by asking you a few questions.

1. I have seen from your profile that you were a former Christian. What specifically led you to walk away from the faith?

2. From there, what led you to Deism, and why not atheism or agnosticism instead?

3. Is God involved in our world at all today, in any way? Was he ever (beyond initial creation)?

4. What are your thoughts and feelings about the Deist God? What is he to you, and how do you relate to him?

[Cinjin]

---

All the established religions of the world are considered "revealed religions". Deism is considered "natural religion". In other words, we don't pretend to know God. We don't assign him a personality or the human attributes that yours and many other religions assign him/her/it. To do so is dishonest as we believe there is no way to know the Creator of the universe. If you feel that this is a denial of your god's person and character, than feel free to thinks so. Obviously we do indeed deny your god's character, and all the world's gods for that matter. On a side note, you'll notice that all the world's gods, especially yours, are all-powerful amazing beings that have never been proven to exist and yet somehow, amazingly enough, all have painfully human characteristics. Jealousy, wrath, envy, kindness, mercy, vengeance, etc. It is obvious to a deist that any god that has human characteristics, especially so many horrible ones, is a concoction of the human mind. A made up entity.

Well, on the flipside of this statement, we have the fact that man is created in Gods image. So, the reason that both God and man have some similar characteristics is because there is a likeness between them. This is not to imply an equality. The characteristics of God are transcendent of man, and the emotions that we have cannot be contrasted to what God might feel. It is only to say that we were patterned after Him in some respect. God also anthropomorphises Himself, most notably in the person of Jesus Christ, so that we can better relate to Him.

I agree that the way that human emotions can sometimes be expressed is quite savage and shameful. However, since humanity is inherently corrupt this isn't surprising. So, the way human beings express their feelings isn't good evidence to suggest that the mere fact of having feelings is some kind of deficiency on Gods part. It would only be evidence if it could be proven that these feelings were inconsistent with His other characteristics, such as holiness, goodness and perfection.

I am not telling you this to convert you, as we believe that your soul is already spoken for regardless of what you believe. I'm only telling you because you asked. I couldn't care less what you choose to believe, just as long as you keep it to yourself.

I would ask what you believe will happen to my soul and what evidence do you have for it?

---

Now that the reply is out of the way, I want to say first of all that my goal in this debate is to have a civil discussion about our beliefs, free from acrimony. This is my position:

I am a former lifetime agnostic. When I came to the realization that there is a higher power, I became a Theist. After 7 or 8 years I converted to Christianity. I became a Christian because I received revelation that the bible was true, and this before I read or understood anything about it. I was not converted by anyone, in fact not one person had ever witnessed to me in my entire life. I came to the faith independently, because of revelation I had received about God.

I am a fundemental, bible believing Christian. I believe in a literal 6 day creation and the literal truth of Gods word.

So, I guess I'll begin by asking you a few questions.

1. I have seen from your profile that you were a former Christian. What specifically led you to walk away from the faith?

The more I researched my Bible and the documented history of Christianity the more I realized how utterly 'the same' it was as all the rest. Plus, by the time I was in grade school I thought it twisted and evil to scare people into salvation.

2. From there, what led you to Deism, and why not atheism or agnosticism instead?

I tried on several different religions including both atheism and agnosticism. I found deism gave me the peace of mind I was looking for --- which is... stop worrying about all this bull shit - it's out of your hands. Which in my opinion, is not that far away from an atheists view anyway, which is maybe why I like them so much.

3. Is God involved in our world at all today, in any way? Was he ever (beyond initial creation)?

I have no idea. Nor do I care. Once again, I remind you, I don't worship God and since there is no way for me to know him, I will only assume the most basics of things. One would be that he exists, and two that he created on some level ... or as DP would say, "got the ball rolling."

4. What are your thoughts and feelings about the Deist God? What is he to you, and how do you relate to him?

It is pointless foolishness to pretend that you know who God is and then pretend that he's talking to you by means of an ancient book ... or in any way whatsoever. This is one of the most essential parts of deism: I don't believe in God because I need him. I don't need him anymore than he needs me. He is not a part of my life in any way. I believe in God because for some reason, unbeknownst to me, I like the idea, and I like having an ounce of faith to my 1000 lbs of rational logic.
[/quote]



Now a couple replies to you ....

So, the reason that both God and man have some similar characteristics is because there is a likeness between them.

A very convenient explanation of how god just happens to be absolutely identical to humans. Also, this information comes from a book written by humans. hmm?

The characteristics of God are transcendent of man, and the emotions that we have cannot be contrasted to what God might feel.

Except that they are not transcendent, as you wish they were - constantly, and throughout the Bible, writers even boast of god's envy and wrath. Warning humans about the dangers of pissing off god. One could even argue that god's pension for killing people who don't think exactly like you do could've ONLY come from the mind of a human being.

God also anthropomorphises Himself, most notably in the person of Jesus Christ, so that we can better relate to Him.

Even if this were true (obviously we both already know I don't think it is) I fail to see how a deity walking around on earth for only 30 some odd years in an isolated geographic location, preaching doctrines that conflict with each other could possibly enable humans around the world and throughout time to better relate to him.

I would ask what you believe will happen to my soul and what evidence do you have for it?

I have no idea what happens to my soul. It's of none of my concern if I even have one, let alone what happens to it. What evidence? REALLY? Are we still on evidence??? THERE IS NONE!!! Should I quote a really old book that contradicts itself constantly?? Is THAT the evidence you want me to produce?!?!? I just told you that deists don't believe in any other evidence other than the world around us because man-made books full of your precious "evidence" are just that ... man made.

I am not here to prove deism to you or anyone else. There is no evidence of an afterlife ... and the "evidence" that you THINK you have is no more valid than the "evidence" that the Muslims think they have.

[Cinjin]

How the hell did I miss this beauty:

I became a Christian because I received revelation that the bible was true, and this before I read or understood anything about it.

Please DO TELL what revelation you received that the bible was TRUE?

(can't hardly wait for this)

[lucent]

The more I researched my Bible and the documented history of Christianity the more I realized how utterly 'the same' it was as all the rest. Plus, by the time I was in grade school I thought it twisted and evil to scare people into salvation.

I'm surprised at this comment because anyone who has studied comparitive religion knows that there are big differences between Christianity and the other religions. You might find some superficial contrasts here and there, but overall, Christianity is unique among them.

First, because salvation is by Grace and not works.

Galatians 2:16

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Other forms of religion subscribe to a system of works which will somehow make us "good" enough to please God. Christianity says that no one is good enough to merit favor, and that it only by grace we are saved.

Second, Christianity isn't a religious system, it is a direct relationship with God. A relationship that God initiated and actively maintians. We believe that humans were created for this purpose, but separated from God because of sin. That's why Jesus Christ came to Earth, to restore that relationship. He paid the price no one else could pay. Other religions teach about the works you must do to work off your evil, and hope the scales weigh at the end..but the work of Jesus Christ is finished. His death on the cross satisfied the requirements of the law, and by His stripes are we healed. He overcame the world and conquered death on Calvary. He rose again and ascended to the right hand of the power of God, where He lives to make intercession for believers forever.

Further, those who have been redeemed by His blood, are adopted into the family of God as His own children, sons and daughters of God. Believers are also the very "body of Christ", of which He is the head. There no other religion that makes anything even approaching these kind of claims.

The third thing is the resurrection itself. His life, death and resurrection were witnessed by many, even hostile witnesses. It is proof that Jesus did what He said He would do. Only in Christianity do we have the person of Christ, who claimed to be God, peformed miracles to prove it, died and rose from the dead, and claimed that He alone is the way the truth and the life, and that no comes to the Father but by Him.

Also, people don't come to Christianity out of fear. I know I certainly didn't. People come to Christianity because they know they need a savior, and that savior is Jesus Christ. Anyone coming to Christianity because they're afraid of hell, I would say that is a false conversion at best. Try reading peoples testimonies some time. I could point you to hundreds, or even thousands of them that fear of hell doesn't factor in. If you know God exists, the logical thing is to get to know Him. People who know God exists come to Christ to be healed.

It sounds like you never gave your life over to Jesus. There are many ex-christians like you who became disillusioned because they never understood its a personal relationship, not a bunch of rules you follow.

I tried on several different religions including both atheism and agnosticism. I found deism gave me the peace of mind I was looking for --- which is... stop worrying about all this bull shit - it's out of your hands. Which in my opinion, is not that far away from an atheists view anyway, which is maybe why I like them so much.

So in other words, you believe in Deism because you want to?

I have no idea. Nor do I care. Once again, I remind you, I don't worship God and since there is no way for me to know him, I will only assume the most basics of things. One would be that he exists, and two that he created on some level ... or as DP would say, "got the ball rolling."

You're making a huge assumption by saying He isn't involved. So I'll ask, why do believe that He isn't?

It is pointless foolishness to pretend that you know who God is and then pretend that he's talking to you by means of an ancient book ... or in any way whatsoever. This is one of the most essential parts of deism: I don't believe in God because I need him. I don't need him anymore than he needs me. He is not a part of my life in any way. I believe in God because for some reason, unbeknownst to me, I like the idea, and I like having an ounce of faith to my 1000 lbs of rational logic.

It's hardly foolish or pointless if God has directly communicated with us. And you only partially answered the question. I want to know what you think about him. What is this God to you? Do you have any feelings towards this God what so ever?

A very convenient explanation of how god just happens to be absolutely identical to humans. Also, this information comes from a book written by humans. hmm?

He isn't absolutely identical to human beings.

Isaiah 55:9

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

From the very beginning of the bible, it states that man is made in Gods image. That is the source of the similarity. That we turn something good into something wretched doesn't speak to the attributes of God.

Except that they are not transcendent, as you wish they were - constantly, and throughout the Bible, writers even boast of god's envy and wrath. Warning humans about the dangers of pissing off god. One could even argue that god's pension for killing people who don't think exactly like you do could've ONLY come from the mind of a human being.

Firstly, God is not envious, as He has no rivals and lacks nothing. Second, God is perfectly just. In order to maintain His righteous standard, God must judge sin. God didn't judge people for not thinking like I do, He judged them because they were wicked. God also tempers His justice with mercy, the foremost example being the work of Jesus Christ.

Even if this were true (obviously we both already know I don't think it is) I fail to see how a deity walking around on earth for only 30 some odd years in an isolated geographic location, preaching doctrines that conflict with each other could possibly enable humans around the world and throughout time to better relate to him.

His doctrines don't conflict with eachother. I'd be happy to clear up your misunderstanding, though. And He enabled humans to better relate to Him by the fact that He became human himself, and suffered as we suffer. The geography and time obviously isn't an issue..He sent his apostles to preach the gospel to the whole world..and here we are 2000 years later and there are over 2 billion Christians in the world.

I have no idea what happens to my soul. It's of none of my concern if I even have one, let alone what happens to it. What evidence? REALLY? Are we still on evidence??? THERE IS NONE!!! Should I quote a really old book that contradicts itself constantly?? Is THAT the evidence you want me to produce?!?!? I just told you that deists don't believe in any other evidence other than the world around us because man-made books full of your precious "evidence" are just that ... man made.

You said my soul was spoken for so that led me to believe you had a specific belief and perhaps evidence to substantiate it. What evidence from the world leads you to believe there is a God? Why, if there is a God, are you content to die with no answers from him?

I am not here to prove deism to you or anyone else. There is no evidence of an afterlife ... and the "evidence" that you THINK you have is no more valid than the "evidence" that the Muslims think they have.

We're here to have a debate, I am assuming. I'm not asking you to prove Deism, I am just trying to find out why you believe what you do. Surely you have good reasons for your beliefs?

---

How the hell did I miss this beauty:

I became a Christian because I received revelation that the bible was true, and this before I read or understood anything about it.

Please DO TELL what revelation you received that the bible was TRUE?

(can't hardly wait for this)

He showed me that He is a triune God, and that there is a Messiah, someone whose job it is to save the world. This is before I understood what any of that really meant. So when I got to the bible I immediately recognized it was about the God I already knew. Further, I was shown that He is sovereign and in absolute control of everything. And also, He showed me His love, mercy, and benevolence, which are clearly perceived from it.

[Cinjin]

How the hell did I miss this beauty:

I became a Christian because I received revelation that the bible was true, and this before I read or understood anything about it.

Please DO TELL what revelation you received that the bible was TRUE?

(can't hardly wait for this)

He showed me that He is a triune God, and that there is a Messiah, someone whose job it is to save the world. This is before I understood what any of that really meant. So when I got to the bible I immediately recognized it was about the God I already knew. Further, I was shown that He is sovereign and in absolute control of everything. And also, He showed me His love, mercy, and benevolence, which are clearly perceived from it.

There is a lot that I want to address in your last post, but I want to get to this one first as you did not remotely answer the question and rather gave me a politician's answer - which of course is no answer.
This is what you wrote:

I became a Christian because I received revelation that the bible was true, and this before I read or understood anything about it.

I, in turn, asked you WHAT revelation? "He showed you he was a triune god." HOW? "and that he is a Messiah." HOW? And also how did he show you all this BEFORE you were even a christian?

Explain yourself and your magical revelation. How EXACTLY did your god show you that he was not only the Messiah, but also triune in his nature BEFORE you even picked up a bible. That's right, you are making the claim that you got a revelation that the bible was true. Therefore you couldn't have gotten this revelation from the Bible itself, because clearly that would be cyclical and not a revelation at all. Also, it would mean that you lied and you did INDEED know about god's attributes before this magical revelation.

You make one hell of a claim here and I'm not going to respond to the former portion of this post until I have a legitimate answer.
If you turn out to be a loony toon, I'm gonna be extremely disappointed - in not only you, but really myself.

[lucent]

There is a lot that I want to address in your last post, but I want to get to this one first as you did not remotely answer the question and rather gave me a politician's answer - which of course is no answer.
This is what you wrote:

I became a Christian because I received revelation that the bible was true, and this before I read or understood anything about it.

I, in turn, asked you WHAT revelation? "He showed you he was a triune god." HOW? "and that he is a Messiah." HOW? And also how did he show you all this BEFORE you were even a christian?

Explain yourself and your magical revelation. How EXACTLY did your god show you that he was not only the Messiah, but also triune in his nature BEFORE you even picked up a bible. That's right, you are making the claim that you got a revelation that the bible was true. Therefore you couldn't have gotten this revelation from the Bible itself, because clearly that would be cyclical and not a revelation at all. Also, it would mean that you lied and you did INDEED know about god's attributes before this magical revelation.

You make one hell of a claim here and I'm not going to respond to the former portion of this post until I have a legitimate answer.
If you turn out to be a loony toon, I'm gonna be extremely disappointed - in not only you, but really myself.

First, I was hoping that we could avoid the kind of tone and hyperbole that is starting to emerge here. I mean are dramatic statements like these really necessary?:

"If you turn out to be a loony toon, I'm gonna be extremely disappointed - in not only you, but really myself."

How about taking a dispassionate view and realizing that although we don't agree on much, we're still humans with the common interest of having a good debate? Can you separate yourself from your prejudices?

As far as the revelations I received, they were in dreams and visions, as well as in the Spirit. Some of it very abstract and hard to communicate, other things very direct. I'm not going to go into specifics because they wouldn't really prove anything, and also because it isn't relevent to the debate. The subject is atheism, desim and Christianity, not specific visions I had. If you don't want to believe me that is up to you, but I can tell you that I was very shocked when I found out the message of Christianity.

[Cinjin]

First of all, I didn't actually say you were a loony toon. Also, the liberty I took in my statement does appear now to have some validity does it not?? Most people who claim to see visions and hear voices from "god" are considered crackpots - probably even by you. Hell, we currently have a thread on these forums about a woman who just murdered her own child because she heard voices from god. Stabbed her 40 times and cut out her organs. That aside, your claim of visions and dreams makes you very special doesn't it? (Don't insult me by saying no) Most christians don't even claim to get these rare messages from god. And as always, how convenient that your god is proven to you, but of course not to anyone else. What kind of elitist god does that? What's so special about you, that you get proof and I don't????

In fact, one would argue that you don't have any faith. I am the only one of the two of us that requires any actual faith!! Now that I think about it - you really have no business preaching to anyone ANYWHERE about faith.

[lucent]

First of all, I didn't actually say you were a loony toon. Also, the liberty I took in my statement does appear now to have some validity does it not?? Most people who claim to see visions and hear voices from "god" are considered crackpots - probably even by you. Hell, we currently have a thread on these forums about a woman who just murdered her own child because she heard voices from god. Stabbed her 40 times and cut out her organs. That aside, your claim of visions and dreams makes you very special doesn't it? (Don't insult me by saying no) Most christians don't even claim to get these rare messages from god. And as always, how convenient that your god is proven to you, but of course not to anyone else. What kind of elitist god does that? What's so special about you, that you get proof and I don't????

Plenty of people get dreams and visions..it's actually very common, and since you claim to come from the Christian community, you should know that. If you go to youtube you can find hundreds, if not thousands of such testimonies. Many, many muslims are coming to Christ these days by dreams and visions in the middle east.

Joel 2:28

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.

Now let's turn this around because you believe billions of people are deluded and you're one of the very special and enlightened ones who have figured it all out. Why do you think you're smarter and wiser than almost the entire world?

Nothing is special about me. All I can say is that in my heart I was open to whatever the truth was. How can you cry elitist when you were priviledged enough to grow up in the faith? But instead of giving God the benefit of the doubt, you rebelled and walked away. Now you curse His name to this very day. So why do you feel you deserve a vision from the Lord?

In fact, one would argue that you don't have any faith. I am the only one of the two of us that requires any actual faith!! Now that I think about it - you really have no business preaching to anyone ANYWHERE about faith.

That's just kind of a joke, Cinjin. Though I have received extraordinary revelation, they have only prepared me for even more extraordinary trials. I wouldn't necessarily call it a huge advantage. "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." I have had my faith tested in many ways, and doubt is always more than willing to step in and take over.

Still waiting for the whole reply.

[Cinjin]

That's the reply I expected. Arguing this point would be futile with a man who thinks that millions people are receiving legitimate visions from his particular god. My own father is a DEVOUT fundamentalist and doesn't even believe that nonsense. I'll leave it at the fact that I think it's ludicrous and I'll go ahead and just move on.

---

The more I researched my Bible and the documented history of Christianity the more I realized how utterly 'the same' it was as all the rest. Plus, by the time I was in grade school I thought it twisted and evil to scare people into salvation.

I'm surprised at this comment because anyone who has studied comparitive religion knows that there are big differences between Christianity and the other religions. You might find some superficial contrasts here and there, but overall, Christianity is unique among them.

Actually, blood cleansing, human sacrifice, baptism, virgin births, etc. etc. came about long before Christianity did. In order to make your statement even remotely true, you need to first eliminate the improvable and ignorant phrase, “anyone who has studied” , and then finish with “some superficial contrasts are all that separate Christianity from other religions such as Zoroastrianism or Islam among many others.”

First, because salvation is by Grace and not works.

Galatians 2:16

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Other forms of religion subscribe to a system of works which will somehow make us "good" enough to please God. Christianity says that no one is good enough to merit favor, and that it only by grace we are saved.

Not according to the Catholics pal … and by the way, they’re not exactly some obscure Christian sect – they’re kinda one of the big shots on the Christian scene. Works are extremely important and I know for a fact that even when a catholic dies they believe that their loved ones have to pray them into heaven. That ain’t grace alone pal. Let me guess – catholics are wrong right?? Which of the hundreds of Christian sects are wrong??? Let me guess – yours has it all figured out right?

Second, Christianity isn't a religious system, it is a direct relationship with God.

And who makes you an authority worthy of making that statement??? It most certainly is a religious system and the fact that you claim it is not is simply ridiculous. It may very well be the BIGGEST religious system in the world.

A relationship that God initiated and actively maintians. We believe that humans were created for this purpose, but separated from God because of sin. That's why Jesus Christ came to Earth, to restore that relationship. He paid the price no one else could pay. Other religions teach about the works you must do to work off your evil, and hope the scales weigh at the end..but the work of Jesus Christ is finished. His death on the cross satisfied the requirements of the law, and by His stripes are we healed. He overcame the world and conquered death on Calvary. He rose again and ascended to the right hand of the power of God, where He lives to make intercession for believers forever.

Further, those who have been redeemed by His blood, are adopted into the family of God as His own children, sons and daughters of God. Believers are also the very "body of Christ", of which He is the head. There no other religion that makes anything even approaching these kind of claims.

This rhetoric doesn’t offer anything in the way of validation for your point. None. It’s just your take on Christianity and your CLAIM that it’s so very different. At the very best it’s only subtly different and making claims that its some unique special religion just because you don’t want to research properly does not make it true.

The third thing is the resurrection itself. His life, death and resurrection were witnessed by many, even hostile witnesses. It is proof that Jesus did what He said He would do. Only in Christianity do we have the person of Christ, who claimed to be God, peformed miracles to prove it, died and rose from the dead, and claimed that He alone is the way the truth and the life, and that no comes to the Father but by Him.

I love it. Here we go again. “Witnessess” recorded in the only book used to “prove” the deity of Jesus Christ. Tell you what. I’ll write a book about how I banged 10 super models one night and I’ll have a friend of mine write in that SAME book how there were 35 witnesses to this amazing event, and 1000 years from now, someone can say, “it MUST be true, there were witnesses!”

Also, people don't come to Christianity out of fear. I know I certainly didn't.

Ridiculous, improvable, and a non-sequitur. Just because you didn’t join the sheep pen out of fear hell-fire doesn’t mean a thing. I was at many “home town revivals” where HELL was a huge motivator, and it is just ignorant to think otherwise. Even Christians I currently know admit this.

People come to Christianity because they know they need a savior, and that savior is Jesus Christ. Anyone coming to Christianity because they're afraid of hell, I would say that is a false conversion at best. Try reading peoples testimonies some time. I could point you to hundreds, or even thousands of them that fear of hell doesn't factor in. If you know God exists, the logical thing is to get to know Him. People who know God exists come to Christ to be healed.

Completely improvable. Please point me to thousands who can vouch for this fact. Is there a list of names with sworn affidavits on a website somewhere? An impossible and ludicrous assertion followed by an even more ridiculous non-squitur: “If you know God exists, the logical thing is to get to know him.” Utterly illogical. First neither of us KNOWS without some measure of faith that God exists and even if we did, it does not follow suit that we should then “get to know him” or would even have the ability to do so. Some of us don’t like to rely on the scribblings of ancient half wits to find out what god was trying to say.

It sounds like you never gave your life over to Jesus. There are many ex-christians like you who became disillusioned because they never understood its a personal relationship, not a bunch of rules you follow.

I tried on several different religions including both atheism and agnosticism. I found deism gave me the peace of mind I was looking for --- which is... stop worrying about all this bull shit - it's out of your hands. Which in my opinion, is not that far away from an atheists view anyway, which is maybe why I like them so much.

So in other words, you believe in Deism because you want to?

Correct. Just like you believe in an angry desert god because you want to. OR WAIT … are you implying that you don’t have free will?!?!? Are you telling me that you didn’t necessarily want to and possibly still don’t??? But rather feel like there is no other choice?!?!?! Is that what you’re saying?!?!?

Think hard before you answer this one. Your question was loaded … obviously so are mine.

I have no idea. Nor do I care. Once again, I remind you, I don't worship God and since there is no way for me to know him, I will only assume the most basics of things. One would be that he exists, and two that he created on some level ... or as DP would say, "got the ball rolling."

You're making a huge assumption by saying He isn't involved. So I'll ask, why do believe that He isn't?

I’ve addressed this. Pay attention.

It is pointless foolishness to pretend that you know who God is and then pretend that he's talking to you by means of an ancient book ... or in any way whatsoever. This is one of the most essential parts of deism: I don't believe in God because I need him. I don't need him anymore than he needs me. He is not a part of my life in any way. I believe in God because for some reason, unbeknownst to me, I like the idea, and I like having an ounce of faith to my 1000 lbs of rational logic.

It's hardly foolish or pointless if God has directly communicated with us. And you only partially answered the question. I want to know what you think about him. What is this God to you? Do you have any feelings towards this God what so ever?

Again, I have already addressed this!! Read it again. I’m not like you. You clearly NEED your god. I do not. I do not worship. I do not pray. I do not even care. I cannot have feelings for something I can never understand. You’ve got to think outside the box man. I don’t view God the way religious people view their gods. Your god is a huge part of your life. That makes NO sense to me. I cannot even understand why you would care.

A very convenient explanation of how god just happens to be absolutely identical to humans. Also, this information comes from a book written by humans. hmm?

He isn't absolutely identical to human beings.

No of course not … cause you say so. Good enough for me.

Isaiah 55:9

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

From the very beginning of the bible, it states that man is made in Gods image. That is the source of the similarity. That we turn something good into something wretched doesn't speak to the attributes of God.

Same ole, same ole

Except that they are not transcendent, as you wish they were - constantly, and throughout the Bible, writers even boast of god's envy and wrath. Warning humans about the dangers of pissing off god. One could even argue that god's pension for killing people who don't think exactly like you do could've ONLY come from the mind of a human being.

Firstly, God is not envious, as He has no rivals and lacks nothing.

Jealousy is tantamount to envy and even if you won’t concede this truth, jealousy is still extremely human – not of god.
Exodus 22:5, Exodus 34:14, Deuteronomy 4:24, Deuteronomy 6:15, Deuteronomy 5:9

Second, God is perfectly just. In order to maintain His righteous standard, God must judge sin. God didn't judge people for not thinking like I do, He judged them because they were wicked. God also tempers His justice with mercy, the foremost example being the work of Jesus Christ.

God is not even close to perfectly just. Condemning the great majority of humans to eternal damnation for simply being born with a human nature and compounding that injustice by only revealing himself for 30 fucking years out of the thousands that mankind has been on this planet. To make it even worse, he claims to have sacrificed himself to himself to save us from a place he made himself. Make it even worse, he knew long before he created all these hell-bound souls that they were already going to hell and made billions of them anyway. What about this is perfect justice? Not a damn thing. It’s clearly a manmade fable.

Even if this were true (obviously we both already know I don't think it is) I fail to see how a deity walking around on earth for only 30 some odd years in an isolated geographic location, preaching doctrines that conflict with each other could possibly enable humans around the world and throughout time to better relate to him.

His doctrines don't conflict with eachother. I'd be happy to clear up your misunderstanding, though.

Doctrines do conflict. Turn the other cheek/I come with a sword. Suffer the little children/Beat them and kill them with bears. There’s hundreds of them, but that’s a whole separate thread so for now I’ll just concede that to you cause I haven’t got the time or the energy. Another time perhaps.

And He enabled humans to better relate to Him by the fact that He became human himself, and suffered as we suffer. The geography and time obviously isn't an issue..He sent his apostles to preach the gospel to the whole world..and here we are 2000 years later and there are over 2 billion Christians in the world.

So for 30 years a miniscule percent of the human race could relate better. Whoopdy-shit?! He didn’t even arrive on this planet till several THOUSAND years after billions had already lived and died! Also, sending disciples all over the world is a huge cop-out. What? Jesus didn’t have the time to prove himself to the rest of us. The disciples and a few thousand Mesopotamians don’t need faith because they have proof, but the rest of us do??? Jesus Christ was pathetic! O and 2 billions Christians, well that’s awesome – “hey thanks jesus, if you came back right now you’d only send 5 billion additional souls into the endless suffering of hell. You’re so just and merciful!”

You see. It’s a man made story.

I have no idea what happens to my soul. It's of none of my concern if I even have one, let alone what happens to it. What evidence? REALLY? Are we still on evidence??? THERE IS NONE!!! Should I quote a really old book that contradicts itself constantly?? Is THAT the evidence you want me to produce?!?!? I just told you that deists don't believe in any other evidence other than the world around us because man-made books full of your precious "evidence" are just that ... man made.

You said my soul was spoken for so that led me to believe you had a specific belief and perhaps evidence to substantiate it. What evidence from the world leads you to believe there is a God?

I already told you – in order to believe in God, I do have to make two assumptions. One, that he exists and Two, that he created. I don’t know if there’s a soul and afterlife and I don’t care. Since I’ve already made the assumption that God created, than clearly if I have a soul, than he created that too and therefore it is out of my hands. Regardless of what happens to it.

Why, if there is a God, are you content to die with no answers from him?

I hate to tell you this pal, but the answers you THINK you have from god are not from God. Just like me, you are going to die without any answers from God. Unlike me you are going to die believing in the words of uneducated, tent-dwelling, goat herders turned self-proclaimed prophets.

Maybe we’ll get the truth in the afterlife. Maybe we won’t. It doesn’t matter. It’s gonna be just fine.

I am not here to prove deism to you or anyone else. There is no evidence of an afterlife ... and the "evidence" that you THINK you have is no more valid than the "evidence" that the Muslims think they have.

We're here to have a debate, I am assuming. I'm not asking you to prove Deism, I am just trying to find out why you believe what you do. Surely you have good reasons for your beliefs?

No, not that good, but in my opinion, they’re far better than your ridiculous notions of talking snakes, burning bushes, floating people, violent gods, zombie deities, and silly book that reads more like The Brothers Grimm than spiritual guidance.

Read the stories man … it’s painfully clear the Bible is fabrication straight from very human minds.



Now on a side note, can we please shorten these things down a LOT? These long posts are exhausting.

If you want to pick a few responses that you just want to write “save for another thread” I won’t bust your balls on it or claim that you’re dodging. These long ass responses are just too tiring and I would at least like to enjoy this a little.