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(October 31, 2011 at 6:37 pm)JollyForr Wrote: I don't understand how some theists can candidly say how you will burn in hell for eternity. I don't see how they could live their life happily, knowing and understanding that good people, moral people, are burning and being tortured profusely, and this will never end. If I did believe in these tales, then I would be so pained by them, that it would cripple me.
This god character sure is an asshole.
I'm afraid that is why they pester us incessantly to look for, accept, welcome, open our hearts to .... yada, yada, yada ... Jesus. Unless you welcome such proselytizing I'd suggest you go easy on this particular criticism.
My bad, I read 'questions for theists" as the thread title and then automatically assumed that I might be able to ask a theist a question.....You don't get to decide whether or not a question is genuine Tack.
I ask a believer why they have a belief in any part of their faith. Usually I get the answer "it's in the book". Well, there's a lot of shit in that book, it's a big book. Sometimes people see two entirely different things when reading it's passages. It's accuracy regarding events and subjects which have been shown to exist is extremely poor to non-existent to intentionally deceitful. It's never been shown to have been penned by or inspired by any god, and no god has ever been shown to exist. So, it's not an incredibly satisfying answer. If that's all you have then so be it, no need to reply.
The litany of "genuine" questions I have about hell.
-Does hell exist? I'm not asking you if you believe that it does. I believe that you believe.
-What reasons do you have for whatever answer you give?
-Do you feel that these reasons, whatever they are, are good reasons, and could you elaborate upon them?
Maybe you don't want to handle whether or not these claims that theists make are factually accurate or defensible, that's fine, perhaps someone else will handle it? Maybe god and hell is real, perhaps it's just that you are incapable of explaining these things. Perhaps you lack evidence, though it exists. If I keep asking, I might find the person who can explain them, who does have evidence. Dismissing questions as "not genuine" is the sort of thing I would expect from someone who has found the answer they are comfortable with calling "ultimate" and has no desire to ask or address any more questions about the subject. I did not expect that you would be such a person, or make such dismissive remarks when asked a question about a part of your beliefs. What I get from you when I ask such a simple question is a long winded way of saying "no, I have no evidence that hell is actually real, and I don't want to discuss it". Disappointing. This shit isn't some game where people get +1's. It's lethal, it's serious, and every now and again I imagine that I might be able to have a serious discussion about it. You don't have to prove god exists, you can tackle hell on it's own yes? Show me how you've determined that the stories about hell can be trusted? Perhaps explain how such a thing as hell or a soul is even possible? Maybe show that these things which you've shown above (if you choose to do so) align with your particular concept of hell? Point to the place, show me how to get there (show me how the souls, which you'll have to demonstrate in the first place, get there). No, you'd rather just wave me away because I don't ask "genuine" questions? Garbage. I'm not going to open my mouth and get in the receiving position just because you have thoughts or beliefs. I believe that you have thoughts and beliefs, that's settled. What I'm asking you is whether or not your thoughts and beliefs are based in reality or fantasy. That's a genuine question, I think you know that it's a genuine question, and I personally believe that you've decided to be evasive about it because you know damn well you can't show any claims you'd like to offer about hell to be an accurate assessment or description of reality. I'm seriously fucking tired of constantly answering your camps questions honestly and to the best of my ability and getting nothing but crickets or evasive platitudes when I ask questions in return.
I wasn't attempting to be dismissive at all. I could comment a lot more, but I'm not I'll just ask your questions as I'm not really in the mood to quibble, I'll just leave it as I'm not dismissing you but I feel it's disingenuous.
1. What I'm asking you is whether or not your thoughts and beliefs are based in reality or fantasy? My beliefs are based on my understanding of reality (as a substance dualist), but as I've personally never died, up to now it's all theory for me.
2. Perhaps explain how such a thing as hell or a soul is even possible? Imposssible to explain to a substance monist or a srict materialist, without your making concessions, which you've made well clear you won't.
3. Does hell exist? as a material physical place, then no. I've never expereinced it, nor had any personal revelations about it, or visions or NDEs. Nothing in my experience gives me any insight on Hell. I believe that no one has yet to expereince it either as the traditional connotation of Hell is defined. I have theories on it's existence, and require no tangible proof of it's "realitY" to prudently have it in my worldview.
4. What reasons do you have for whatever answer you give? Biblical exegesis
5. Do you feel that these reasons, whatever they are, are good reasons, and could you elaborate upon them? For me they are good reasons. Is the Bible a good reason for an unbeliever to believe; probably not as they usually don't believe it.
hope I answered them all
-Dave
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
January 6, 2012 at 11:28 am (This post was last modified: January 6, 2012 at 11:30 am by Whateverist.)
(January 6, 2012 at 6:10 am)tackattack Wrote: 4. What reasons do you have for whatever answer you give? Biblical exegesis
5. Do you feel that these reasons, whatever they are, are good reasons, and could you elaborate upon them? For me they are good reasons. Is the Bible a good reason for an unbeliever to believe; probably not as they usually don't believe it.
So you feel that the bible is the ultimate source of truth and understanding in questions of human conduct and purpose. I appreciate that you don't turn to the bible for empirical facts but I'm curious how you come to invest so much authority in the bible.
In talking to reasonable theists I'm accustomed to learning that their base reason for believing in God stems from a feeling of God moving in their life. From the outside, I interpret this to mean that having developed a relationship to God at an early age and having grown up experiencing life always in the relationship to God, it is just inconceivable to imagine life without Him. Where those of us without God just think we sometimes have good insight and sometimes don't, a theist will think that sometimes God speaks to them and sometimes they have to go it alone. I actually think there are real advantages to conceiving of wisdom as coming from outside ones conscious self.*
The part that I have more trouble with is how the experience of God moving in ones life moves one to fixate on the bible as the correct source of information about God and His will as it applies to you. Here it does seem simply a matter of tradition. If you grew up experiencing God in your life then you probably grew up in a home where the people that encouraged your relationship to God turned to the bible for more information about that god. I suppose if you start reading the bible early on it informs the relationship you form with God to the point where the two feel inseparable.
From the outside it is the reliance on the bible which seems the most suspect. I'll grant you that I cannot disprove the existence of God and if your core hunch is that He is there, go for it. But I can't see any basis for certainty that the bible is the real deal. At best it is the source book with which you've built up your notions of the God whose presence you so strongly perceive. But I think the leap to the bible substitutes certainty for faith. I really don't think you can have both.
*[In a very real sense, we're not alone within ourselves. I don't call the other seat of consciousness within myself God, but I do recognize its existence. I think our brains, like those of most vertebrates, are split the way they are so that consciousness can attend to two things at once. The left brain, used for close attention to a chosen task is the side that gives rise to the seat of consciousness which we inhabit. The other side, is also conscious but specializes in monitoring the big picture for threats and opportunities. The two sides serve different purposes but both can 'take the steering wheel' when the need arises, but in the normal course of events the left brain runs the show in order to attend the chosen task at hand. Interestingly, 'our' side of the brain is not especially good at 'getting the big picture' or 'thinking outside the box'. When what we already know will suffice, we rule. When you need a new insight you need input from the other side. I suspect that when you commune with God, it is the right side seat of consciousness that you open yourself up to .. and that is a beneficial thing.
