Near-Death Experiences (NDEs), Souls, and Atheism

[Milky Tea]

If there was no brain activity then the brain would be non-functioning and a person would be incapable of experiencing anything. In most cases of reported NDE's the individual has suffering hypoxia and temporary or permanent brain damage which can cause the person to suffer hallucinations, and it's not unreasonable to expect that a brain under extreme physiological stress isn't going to be functioning property resulting in some odd experiences.

There is a distinct absence of evidence to support the existence of souls. We are currently unable to detect them, our consciousness while not well understood is better understood in terms of an emergent property of our brain/body, and the primary drive behind it is to qualify religious claims rather than something which has been implied or suggested by study of the natural world.

If people were able to leave their bodies under controlled conditions and given accurate reports on things which the couldn't see from their bodies position, if we had reliable communication from the dead, or if we were able to detect the souls of people either directly or indirectly then we may have some reasons to pursue the soul hypothesis but we don't. All we have are a variety of quacks and con artists who either intentionally or unconsciously deceive others into believing that they can commune with the dead, or claim to be capable of astral project but fail abysmally when required to be specific about what they can see.

As for the common framing of experiences within a religious context this isn't entirely surprising as I suspect many of these people are religiously inclined anyway or if not have been subject to cultural influences which make the religious interpretation particularly likely.

[Willpower]

RE: Rhythm

I'm sorry, but this claim isn't worth the time it would take to completely and utterl debunk.

--If you read my OP carefully, you will see that this thread was not created in order to interject any claims. This thread was created to ask a question and attain insights as to a possible solution. The question I posed is:

How can our brains function to create such vivid and memorable "hallucinations," in cases where there is absolutely no brain activity? (--such as it is deemed in cardiac arrest cases) (I also explained later how the theory that they are dreaming/hallucinating has faults)

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RE: Epimethean

Not in any convincing way did you do so. Your contention remains scientifically absurd and, so, simply more religious mumbo-jumbo. 50% of patients listed "Awareness of being dead?" WTF? They weren't dead, or they would have had no such awareness. Dreams can be convincing, too, but they are not reality.

They expressed that they had awareness of being dead. I agree this is surprising. But there are faults in the assertion that they were simply dreaming. Dreams cause electrical activity in the brain. Cardiac arrest patients have no electrical activity in the brain. Thus they cannot be dreaming. Please read the last half of post #32 for more information regarding that statement.

If I am wrong in this statement in some way or if you have a better explanation than the assertion that they are dreaming, I am more than eager to hear it.

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RE: Milky Tea

In most cases of reported NDE's the individual has suffering hypoxia and temporary or permanent brain damage which can cause the person to suffer hallucinations, and it's not unreasonable to expect that a brain under extreme physiological stress isn't going to be functioning property resulting in some odd experiences.

The problem with the hallucinations theory is that hallucinations cause electrical activity in the brain. Cardiac arrest patients have no electrical activity in the brain. Thus they cannot be hallucinating in having these experiences. Please read the last half of post #32 for more information regarding that statement.
If I am wrong in this statement in some way or if you have a better explanation than the assertion that they are hallucinating, I am more than eager to hear it.

As for the common framing of experiences within a religious context this isn't entirely surprising as I suspect many of these people are religiously inclined anyway or if not have been subject to cultural influences which make the religious interpretation particularly likely.

In my post #41, I explained that, out of all the individuals they studied, only "(72%) were religious." Yet they all had very similar experiences (--some of which I described in posts #32 and #14).
Additionally, the NDErs results unite with respect to the impact that the NDE has on those experiencers.

That they all had a similar experience (or “dream” or hallucination, if you insist)—regardless of "medical, pharmacological, or psychological factors"-- is yet intriguing in itself.
With respect to the NDE's impact on their lives, it is furthermore intriguing that—regardless of "medical, pharmacological, or psychological factors"--their NDEs statistically significantly led them all more towards those ideals and virtues that have already been promoted by Christian doctrine for centuries.
(--Despite however weakly many Christians actually live up to those.)

Please check out post #41 for my extended discussion on that.

Regressing back to your quote: A significant amount (28%) of the individuals were non-religious. Yet they all had a similar experience, and the experience had a similar impact on them all.

[Welsh cake]

-Where does the notion of an afterlife come from?

From egocentrically insatiable people among us who don't want death to be the end.

What do those with power usually want when aware it is limited? More power.
What do the living usually want who are all-too aware of their own mortality? More life...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjbAgwdBaTI

[The Grand Nudger]

Exactly how long do you think it takes to dream a dream Will? I'm explicitly suggesting that there is nothing going on here that is not understood, if only in the general. Further, that the entire subject of NDE, and the cultural framework behind it, are based in myth. Why not ask "are these events occurring at the precise moment the claimant believes them to be?" Why just assume that this is a given?

[Milky Tea]

Unfortunately I'm not able to see the original full copy of that paper which is on Lancet, only the abstract, and from previous experience with religious people I've distrustful of information they host on their websites because it's not always been accurate, often due to deliberate alteration. Looking at your copy of it there appears to be some inconsistencies between the actual percentage of religious people who experienced or didn't experience a NDE and the percentage cited on the list which leads me to believe that they've been altered.

For example of the 62 who reported a NDE 26 of these stated they were religious which is around 42%, not 70%. Of the 282 who didn't report a NDE 27 of these were identified as religious which is around 10%, not 73%. Granted it's been some times since I did statistics at University but I'm fairly confident that this isn't right and there are similar errors in some of the other percentages cited. From these figures those who didn't identify themselves as religious would be higher than the 28% you cited, more like 58% in fact since of the 62 who reported a NDE 36 didn't identify themselves as being religious.

Without being able to see the full paper I'm reluctant to accept the copy hosted on a Christian website as being accurate.

If anything on the basis of that abstract it appears that the frequency of NDE's is pretty low which which isn't consistent with the claim that NDE's are evidence for the existence of souls. Either only 12-18% of people have souls leaving a lot of soulless people or there is something else going on which influences whether or not a person experiences a NDE.

Regarding brain activity I've not been able to find a definitive answer from a reliable source on how it varies follow cardiac arrest and subsequent hypoxia. Most reliable sources simply state that the longer a persons brain is without oxygen the more damage is incurred until they are brain-dead. Full consciousness can certainly be lost very quickly but this is not the same thing as there being no brain activity. I also question how it's established at which point the person experienced their NDE. The assumption is that it happened when they had little brain activity but I don't see why it couldn't have occurred during the loss or gaining of consciousness.

As for you claims about the religious impact NDE's had on people this doesn't constitute as evidence for the existence of souls or a validation of Christianity. As I said earlier those who interpret this experience in a religious framework likely do so because they are already religious or are subject to religious culture. No doubt if the study was carried out in a culture where a different religion was dominant we'd expect to see some people experiencing a strengthening of their faith of adoption of that faith. You can't ignore the cultural aspect of where the study is carried out.

[IATIA]

Perhaps "inexplicable" for a 'god dulled' brain, but for the truly enlightened, there have been several explanations within this thread to account for this 'experience'. Forget god and let some science seep into that brain of yours and you will see how simple it all this is.

Enough with the ad-hominem attacks. If you are so wise, can you explain it?

First:

This is not an argumentum ad hominem as it has no bearing on my response.

argument directed at the man

Second:

It was a generic, nonspecific insult to those that refuse to accept or even examine scientific research. The fact that you took it personally and your previous responses suggests that you do fit the bill as follows.

Third:

Your basic argument against the science is that you do not accept the arguments because they do not include your god or afterlife or your preconceived answer. (a 'god dulled' brain)

There is no thought when there is no brain activity. The 'experiences' are malfunctions of the brain due to drugs, chemicals, damage, etc. and these 'experiences' happen before the shut down occurs and they are repeatable.

You asked the question and yet you completely failed to thoughtfully examine the evidence, ergo my response. "Forget god and let some science seep into that brain of yours"

And since, you have been dragging a red herring behind you.

[Epimethean]

All I can say here is, "Holy crap." Not one bit of this supposed phenomenon (which the scientific community less a few brain damaged neurologists have continued to discredit) holds water.

[AthiestAtheist]

I think this should really be on the science board.

[Epimethean]

You mean, along with "The Earth is a giant space frisbee" thread?

[Shell B]

Oh, no, this Will guy clearly wants this to be about atheism, despite the backpedaling in the past few pages. Let's hear what the fuck it has to do with atheism.