I really don't want to disturb one of your learned threads on Evolution, but I have 3 questions regarding the perception of evolution:

1. I've never fully understood why theists are so afraid of evolution. Does it in some way conflict with any particular religion? I thought the 'intelligent design' argument was supposed to link God with science -- why are people still banging on about evolution?

2. What was everyone taught at school? I had no idea that evolution was open to debate until I decided to learn more about it on Wikipedia and saw that there was a big furror about it. Wasn't everyone just taught "evolution is a fact and this is the scientific theory about why it happens, now on to Mitosis"?

3. When you were first taught about evolution (whether it be by parent, teacher etc.) didn't you just think "yup, that makes perfect sense -- bloomin' 'eck scientists are clever"?

I wasn't really taught about evolution at school, I'm ex-Catholic (still on their books as one of their flock I suppose), nor was I taught why science works ... that or even at 6th form college so it may not be an actual criticism of Catholicism, it may just have been the way 35 plus years ago.

Although I was pro-science I never really thought overmuch about evolution and science much until I got involved in a forum run by crazy fundamentalists about 15 years ago.

Kyu

(February 9, 2009 at 8:45 am)LondonLoves Wrote: 1. I've never fully understood why theists are so afraid of evolution. Does it in some way conflict with any particular religion? I thought the 'intelligent design' argument was supposed to link God with science -- why are people still banging on about evolution?

They are afraid of it because it means we are not special. I used this as a powerful arguing point in my debate earlier this week. I said something like this:

Tiberius Wrote:Almost every religion today puts humanity in a special “chosen” position by their God. We have dominion over all the animals, simply because we have free will and are made in his image. This was all very well for people to believe hundreds of years ago, but the arrival of modern science changed this completely.

Through the fossil record, we have seen how millions of species died out, and that we are one of the many branches on the so-called “Tree of Life” that made it. So in some respect, we are “special”, as we are the result of a 4 billion year old struggle to survive. However, every single species of animal still alive today is a survivor too, and they are equally as special as we.

If Evolution is true (which it is) then there is no difference between myself and a common housefly (in terms of importance). This is what scares theists. Evolution can't possibly be true because there is no reason for a God to use the process given that it is the same for every species.

Quote:2. What was everyone taught at school? I had no idea that evolution was open to debate until I decided to learn more about it on Wikipedia and saw that there was a big furror about it. Wasn't everyone just taught "evolution is a fact and this is the scientific theory about why it happens, now on to Mitosis"?

I wasn't taught much about it, only that it was a theory about how we began. Of course I got more interested in the subject as I got older and now I have a few books on it.

Quote:3. When you were first taught about evolution (whether it be by parent, teacher etc.) didn't you just think "yup, that makes perfect sense -- bloomin' 'eck scientists are clever"?

No, I was confused at how we could know all this. I'm still confused in some aspects, but thanks to Donald Prothero's book, I am slowly realising the awesomeness of science

(February 9, 2009 at 8:45 am)LondonLoves Wrote: 1. I've never fully understood why theists are so afraid of evolution. Does it in some way conflict with any particular religion? I thought the 'intelligent design' argument was supposed to link God with science -- why are people still banging on about evolution?

Well, lets take Christianity for instance. The Christian standard apologetic is based on the Bible being the "true word from God" and many scientific things directly contradict it.

Let's compare some modern scientific theories with the creation account in Genesis, to see how completely incompatible they are:

1. Science: The universe has been forming and expanding for billions of years after the Big Bang.

Genesis: God created the universe in six days (Genesis 1:1-31).

2. Science: The sun and most of the stars formed before the earth was formed.

Genesis: The earth was created before the sun and stars (the earth on the first day - Genesis 1:2-5, the sun and stars on the fourth day - Genesis 1:14-19).

3. Science: The first lifeforms evolved in the oceans.

Genesis: The first forms of life were plants on dry land (on the third day - Genesis 1:9-12).

4. Science: Fish evolved in the oceans before plants appeared on land.

Genesis: Plants and trees were created on land before fish were created (plants and trees on the third day - Genesis 1:9-13, fish on the fifth day - Genesis 1:20-23).

5. Science: Fish evolved millions of years before birds.

Genesis: Fish and birds were created during the same 24-hour period (the fifth day - Genesis 1:20-23).

6. Science: Reptiles evolved before whales (which are mammals).

Genesis: Whales were created before reptiles (whales on the fifth day - Genesis 1:20-23, reptiles on the sixth day - Genesis 1:24-31).

7. Science: Reptiles and land mammals evolved before birds.

Genesis: Birds were created before reptiles and land mammals (birds on the fifth day - Genesis 1:20-23, reptiles and land mammals on the sixth day - Genesis 1:24-31).

8. Science: Sea mammals (the ancestors of dolphins and whales) arose in the same period as the first primates (the ancestors of monkeys and humans).

Genesis: Sea mammals were created before monkeys and humans (sea mammals on the fifth day - Genesis 1:20-23, monkeys and humans on the sixth day - Genesis 1:24-31).

9. Science: Life evolved by gradually changing from one type of lifeform into a new kind of lifeform.

Genesis: Life was created "according to their various kinds" (Genesis 1:11, 12, 21, 24, 25). Genesis reveals that God created each kind of animal without any hint of an evolutionary process. It is significant that plants and animals were all created "according to their kinds," but humans were created "in the image of God" (Genesis 1:27).

So from the beginning, according to the bible humans were created to be different from the animals. Humans did not evolve from any animals. That is a 180 degree opposing view of the ToE and therefore ToE must be wrong in the Christians eye. There are a lot of bitter pills to swallow as a believer when you actually believe the Bible to be the absolute true word of God. These hardcore Christians would rather reject all supported evidence than admit that the Bible is wrong.

Now there are people that consider themselves Christian and still accept the ToE to be true, some of which are even well known scientist defending the ToE against creationist assaults. But they really have to cherry pick the Bible to unimaginable depths to reconcile their beliefs with what they know.

(February 9, 2009 at 8:45 am)LondonLoves Wrote: 2. What was everyone taught at school? I had no idea that evolution was open to debate until I decided to learn more about it on Wikipedia and saw that there was a big furror about it. Wasn't everyone just taught "evolution is a fact and this is the scientific theory about why it happens, now on to Mitosis"?

I learned Biology for close to 10 years, as it is part of the curriculum for lower and secondary agricultural school. To me the theory of Evolution through natural selection made perfect sense because it is essentially nature doing what farmers do themselves and have done for over 1000's of years. The only difference is that instead of natural selection, the farmers are the selectors.

(February 9, 2009 at 8:45 am)LondonLoves Wrote: 3. When you were first taught about evolution (whether it be by parent, teacher etc.) didn't you just think "yup, that makes perfect sense -- bloomin' 'eck scientists are clever"?

Not the scientists are clever part, I never looked that far ahead.

I'll skip question one, as it's been answered thoroughly enough.

2) I'm taking my biology A-level at the moment and we've just done a huge topic on evolution, genetic drift, etc. We started with DNA and how it replicates itself, the different ways in which it can mutate and how offspring are born with various mutations. It all makes coherent sense if I'm honest. Back when I was doing high school biology we did work on peppered moths. Nobody really questions evolution here. I don't remember ever saying "that can't be right :S".

3) When I was younger I used to collect this series of dinosaur comic/magazines. They'd come with dinosaur bones which you could join togther each week until you finally made the entire T-rex. I absolutely adored them and learned a great deal about how scientists found out about things. I think I trusted science pretty early on because of this. I wanted to be a scientific researcher myself when I grew up (and owe many thanks to religion for sparking my interest in science again last summer )

It was always explained to me as a kid that one day for God could be a billion of our years, and that's how it could have happened. I just imagined they meant that God uses evolution to make stuff. I do remember my dad postulating that maybe some piece of another planet hit ours, and had dinosaur bones on it and that scattered them across the world. WHAT?! he's really pretty crazy. Well mormons think they're going to be god of their own universe some day if they're good. So maybe he thought someone else's universe got blown up at some point and there were dinosaurs on it, sending all of the fossils crashing down on earth in order of their evolution with carbon dating all escalating properly around the whole world. Cause gods do that to F with you and your faith.

(February 9, 2009 at 8:45 am)LondonLoves Wrote: 1. I've never fully understood why theists are so afraid of evolution. Does it in some way conflict with any particular religion? I thought the 'intelligent design' argument was supposed to link God with science -- why are people still banging on about evolution?

I think the overall point is that it is viewed as being at odds with scripture. Some have reconciled the two - theistic evolution. However, another sticking point is the evolution of Homo sapiens sapiens from previous organisms. In many people's view this makes us no more special than any other organism on the Earth.

ID is just creationism dressed up to try and look like science, it is just as much crap as old school creationism.

Quote:2. What was everyone taught at school? I had no idea that evolution was open to debate until I decided to learn more about it on Wikipedia and saw that there was a big furror about it. Wasn't everyone just taught "evolution is a fact and this is the scientific theory about why it happens, now on to Mitosis"?

I grew up in small town south Texas - I don't ever remember covering evolution in high school. We covered basic genetics but that's about it. It wasn't until I took it upon myself to learn more about evolution and a couple of college courses did I understand the theory.

Quote:3. When you were first taught about evolution (whether it be by parent, teacher etc.) didn't you just think "yup, that makes perfect sense -- bloomin' 'eck scientists are clever"?

When I began to learn more about evolution - I was skeptical at first because of my incorrect notions about it - it made perfect sense, it's a brilliant theory and a great accomplishment in science.

(February 9, 2009 at 8:45 am)LondonLoves Wrote: I thought the 'intelligent design' argument was supposed to link God with science -- why are people still banging on about evolution?

I just though that this point could do ith a little more coverage. Creationism is the belief that God created the Earth and life as the bible tells us; i.e. approximately 6000 years ago, with all the animals seen today and in the fossil record and with all the events involved such as the global flood. It contradicts almost every aspect of modern science.

In the 90's many attempts to get creationism taught in schools as an alternative to evolutionary theory failed due to legal judgements preventing religion being taught as science.

So, the Creationists removed the references to God and produced Intelligent Design theory. A subset of creationist ideas that suggest there is scientific evidence for a creator of the world. Again this was an attempt to intorduce religious ideas to the science classroom.

The controversy arises in that the evidence produced and advocated by the ID movement is at best unscientific and worst contradicts scientific fact. It certainly should not be allowed into a science class.

Examples include;
Quote mining to suggest Darwin and other scientists believed in an Intelligent Creator
Using the banana as an example of a fruit designed for human consumption (the banana has been cultivated by man to it's present form).
Assuming conclusions and finding evidence to fit (for example, the claim fossils on mountain tops prove the Great Flood, ignoring plate tetonics).

Intelligent design does not reconcile God and science, it's a hammer that tried to force biblical accounts of creation into science and opposes established scientific theory and fact wherever it disagrees with a narrow, fundamentalist Christian view of the world. It's intellectual fraud at its worst, not least of which because it's specifically aimed at spreading its lies to children.

1. I've never fully understood why theists are so afraid of evolution. Does it in some way conflict with any particular religion? I thought the 'intelligent design' argument was supposed to link God with science -- why are people still banging on about evolution?

People look at this in several ways. Many theists have no truck with evolution and view their creationist brethren to be hopelesly ill-informed. I feel that the people who deny evolution (the fact as well as the theory) are threatened by it. Taking evolution to it s natural conclusion, they believe that human beings lose their "specialness", and if we are, as evolution suggests to them, just another species (albeit a fascinating one) then gods are irrelevant and this is something they cannot accept. And whatever psychological barriers they can erect to shield them and their offspring from it, the better off they feel they are. Look at how many logical fallacies are involved in the typical evolution v. creation debate.

2. What was everyone taught at school? I had no idea that evolution was open to debate until I decided to learn more about it on Wikipedia and saw that there was a big furror about it. Wasn't everyone just taught "evolution is a fact and this is the scientific theory about why it happens, now on to Mitosis"?

I learned a bit about it, but it wasn t until about 8 months ago, when a friend told me he had just spoken to a girl that went to the Creation "Museum" and loved it, that I decided to become truly informed. (By the way, I think one of the most embarrasing moments of my life was the day that bastion of ignorance and lies was opened in my state). I always accepted evolution but really didn t understand it. Then, I started reading and watching videos. I learned about biochemistry (including ERVs and mitochondrial DNA), phylogenies/cladistics, biogeography, stratigraphy and that there actually WAS a controversy. (Not among scientists, but among the educated and the uninformed).

3. When you were first taught about evolution (whether it be by parent, teacher etc.) didn't you just think "yup, that makes perfect sense -- bloomin' 'eck scientists are clever"?

I thought it was fascinating. Although I really didn t get a very good understanding of it, I never really questioned the veracity of it and didn t know there were many people who did. (And I was attending a Southern Baptist church at the time). I remember when I was a senior in HS (many years later) being shocked when a friend of mine told me she didn t "believe in" evolution and my stepmother told me the same thing shortly thereafter. I thought they must be the only weirdoes out there. It really wasn t until recently that I learned of the extent to which willful ignorance pervades the American landscape. [/i]

Thanks for clearing up the conflict between Intelligent Design and Evolution. My interpretation of it (admittedly, without reading into the subject too heavily) was that evolution does happen (the 'fact' of evolution) but God (Superman, Santa Claus, Mammon) directs the way evolution occurs. I was of the opinion that Intelligent Designers debate the theory that evolution is bound to happen rather than being programmed to happen. You learn something new every day!

It's interesting you mention the bannana: "an atheists worst nightmare". Congrats must go to that chap for coming up with something seemingly ingenius that then made him the laughing stock of the scientific community. His attempt to escape from the labarynthian world of scientific knowledge led him to fly far too close to the bright heat of scientific fact and brought him crashing down.

Why do you all think that Evolution is not covered extensively in schools?