(August 5, 2015 at 12:55 am)Harris Wrote: I do not understand why you hyperactive scientific guys love to throw statements in thin air without any citation.

It is as if I am saying, you have a tail and go aside laughing at you seeing that you are striving hard to prove “no I do not have a tail.”

If you think some ancient Greek thinker said something miraculous then give proper citation along with your statements.

You are the one who claims that minor philosophical points represent miracles, not I. YOUR standard of miracle is "something that I don't believe anyone at that time could have known."

Quote:Do you think without nature science is possible?

a. If your answer is Yes then show how
b. If your answer is No then show how nature originated
c. If you do not have answers to a and b then simply agree with the facts that Quran is exposing which are logical in terms of science and philosophy.

Science without nature is impossible. Science without the fairy tales of dark-ages sand people is perfectly possible.

Quote:What Muslims are doing today or what they did in the past is nothing but a BIG BLAH!

I agree.

Quote:If people were thinking about the skin, then there should exist at least one reference but neither you nor I nor anyone else in today’s world is able to find even a single statement in the entire human history up until fourteenth century that may be taken as proof that people were aware of the properties of skin.

Why everyone was silent earlier but onwards fourteenth century suddenly started speaking rigorously about the skin properties. Think wisely.

The quran says skin can be burned and it will cause pain when the skin is burned, are you trying to say ancient people weren't aware that being burned hurt?

Quote:[quote pid='1013701' dateline='1438750542']
Quran gave contrary information by exposing skin as pain receptor in place of heart when everyone was thinking otherwise. It is an adequate proof for any person who is logical

[/quote]

Not contrary information at all.  All the quran says is that burning skin is a punishment, it doesn't say the heart is not responsible for sensing the pain when the skin is burned.

Quote:By your logic, if you prove that the strike of a wood is the only thing in the world that causes pain in the groin then I will agree with your statement that “NO ONE IN ANCIENT TIMES KNEW THAT BEING HIT BY A PIECE OF WOOD IN THE GROIN HURTS.”

Otherwise, I have already crushed your statement by giving an authentic historical record.

I know that being hit in the groin with things hurts, because I can experience the pain, I know that people in ancient times knew about pain being caused by being hit in the groin by wood.
I know ancient people most likely knew about skin going numb after being scabbed over or receiving harsh burns because they would have experienced these things.
But that's using sensible logic.
Using your logic on the other hand............ if I don't find any ancient writings about someone being hit in the groin by a piece of wood then I know for a 100% fact that they didn't know being hit by a piece of wood in the groin caused pain, you still haven't proven otherwise because the ancient writing you found only says the piece of wood in the groin caused death, no actual evidence of pain.
I'm using your logic here, if they didn't write about it they didn't know it.
So it doesn't matter that ancient people used fire extensively for cooking, heat, and punishment.  And that they almost definitely would have known every sort of symptom of 3rd and 4th degree burns.  None of that matters because they if I can't find them writing about it then I know they didn't know about it.

Quote:Do you know that if you literally burn or cut physical brain of a conscious person then that person does not feel any pain?

Brain is a processor that receives signals from different sensory organs and translate them into some kind of brain language that gives meaning to the consciousness.

Without skin or fire, brain cannot process sense of burning, therefore both the skin and the fire are obligatory for the brain to give burning sensation.

Brain alone is a senseless organ that acts like a dumb, deaf, and blind processor in the absence of input devices. Brain cannot produce any sensation on its own without proper sensory organs therefore the idea that brain or heart independently work out burning sensation is false.

Quran is precise in pointing to skin and internal organs without which people would have no feelings of burn.

I'm not saying if you burn or cut the actual brain it hurts.  I'm saying the major part of the body responsible for the suffering of pain is the brain.
You can slowly have your skin burned all day long and have boiling water poured into your internal organs and you won't suffer in the slightest if you have no brain to sense any of it.
No single organ is as responsible for the suffering of pain like the brain is.

The thing to take away from this thread is that the Quran is mostly about burning people's skin.

(August 5, 2015 at 9:24 am)robvalue Wrote: The thing to take away from this thread is that the Quran is mostly about burning people's skin.

And the "miraculous" science of how to do it right.

(August 5, 2015 at 6:23 am)bennyboy Wrote: You are the one who claims that minor philosophical points represent miracles, not I. YOUR standard of miracle is "something that I don't believe anyone at that time could have known."

“Minor Philosophical Points!” Had I given any philosophical point? There are no philosophical points in my post all nine points are precisely scientific.

(August 5, 2015 at 6:23 am)bennyboy Wrote: Science without nature is impossible. Science without the fairy tales of dark-ages sand people is perfectly possible.

The points that I have raised in my post are not from the wonderland fairy tales. They are precise scientific facts. Please be specific and do not try to divert this discussion to wonderlands and fairy tales. You still have to provide justification on how those scientific facts entered into Quran in seventh century if in your opinion Quran is not the word of God (The Creator of everything).

(August 5, 2015 at 8:09 am)paulpablo Wrote: The quran says skin can be burned and it will cause pain when the skin is burned, are you trying to say ancient people weren't aware that being burned hurt?

Here you are deliberately twisting the truth by totally deflating my justifications and overshadowing them with your perverted ideas that you are trying to enforce consciously and intentionally.

The point here is not whether people were aware or not about burning sensation but it is about their perception of burning sensation. They perceived heart as pain receptor, which Quran has corrected by attracting their attentions towards the skin.

(August 5, 2015 at 8:14 am)paulpablo Wrote: Not contrary information at all. All the quran says is that burning skin is a punishment, it doesn't say the heart is not responsible for sensing the pain when the skin is burned.

You are again playing with the words.

If I say, “Only brain is in charge of generating feelings and emotions” then is there any need to mention, “Heart does not cause any feelings and emotions.”

(August 5, 2015 at 8:26 am)paulpablo Wrote: I know that being hit in the groin with things hurts, because I can experience the pain, I know that people in ancient times knew about pain being caused by being hit in the groin by wood.
I know ancient people most likely knew about skin going numb after being scabbed over or receiving harsh burns because they would have experienced these things. But that's using sensible logic.

Using your logic on the other hand............ if I don't find any ancient writings about someone being hit in the groin by a piece of wood then I know for a 100% fact that they didn't know being hit by a piece of wood in the groin caused pain, you still haven't proven otherwise because the ancient writing you found only says the piece of wood in the groin caused death, no actual evidence of pain.

I'm using your logic here, if they didn't write about it they didn't know it.

So it doesn't matter that ancient people used fire extensively for cooking, heat, and punishment. And that they almost definitely would have known every sort of symptom of 3rd and 4th degree burns. None of that matters because they if I can't find them writing about it then I know they didn't know about it.

Regarding fire and skin, you are repeating the same statements thousands and thousands of time by totally ignoring the facts, which I am giving to you.

The point here is not whether people were aware or not about burning sensation but it is about their perception of pain according to which heart is the receptor of all kinds of pains (including burning sensation).

As for wood and groin, you have asked me to find ancient record in order to prove that if there is no historical record about hitting in the groin causes pain then that would be the proof that no one in the history was aware about the pain caused by hitting the groin.

Unfortunately, you have overestimated your confidence by undermining the fact that just as burning skin hurts is a common knowledge, likewise groin hurts when hit by something is a common knowledge as well. Therefore, I found the historical record without much effort and proved your idea to be wrong.

(August 5, 2015 at 8:42 am)paulpablo Wrote: I'm not saying if you burn or cut the actual brain it hurts. I'm saying the major part of the body responsible for the suffering of pain is the brain.

And, I say that brain cannot generate the sensation of burning without skin.

(August 5, 2015 at 8:42 am)paulpablo Wrote: You can slowly have your skin burned all day long and have boiling water poured into your internal organs and you won't suffer in the slightest if you have no brain to sense any of it.

That is true for the organs as well because brain needs them to generate senses and feelings.

(August 5, 2015 at 8:42 am)paulpablo Wrote: No single organ is as responsible for the suffering of pain like the brain is.

WRONG! Brain cannot produce signals of the sensory organs all by its own. Each sensory organ is crucial to produce signals to brain. Without having proper signals from sensory organs, brain is not capable to originate senses and feelings.

Can a blind feel something after directing his eyes towards bright sparkling colours or can a deaf gets delighted by some jubilant music.

(August 5, 2015 at 9:51 pm)bennyboy Wrote: robvalue Wrote:
The thing to take away from this thread is that the Quran is mostly about burning people's skin.

Bennyboy wrote:
And the "miraculous" science of how to do it right.

If Paulpablo is striving hard to prove that people in the past knew that burning skin hurts and repeat the word Skin thousands of time then that repetition is from Paulpablo not from Quran.

The word skin repeated in Quran about five or six times only.

Let me introduce a new miracle of Quran.

The word “Land” mentioned in Quran 13 times that is 13/45 = 28.888
The word “Sea” mentioned in Quran 32 times that is 32/45 = 71.111

The approximate ratio of land to sea is 13:32 or 28.888:71.111

http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/8o.html

The author, who hypothetically was living in desert in seventh century, knew the exact quantity of water on earth and that knowledge made him capable of writing these figures in coded form.

Hey Harris!
Rather than warping some sacred text to try to take credit for the hard work scientists have done in the past,
why don't you pray and study the Koran and come back with something specific, predictive and currently unknown.

Like for instance:  bring me an algorithm which can factor the product of two large prime numbers in a reasonable (for instance a couple days of computer) time.
We'll get really famous and rich.

Predictions aren't very impressive when they're made after the event.

Quote:Therefore, I found the historical record without much effort and proved your idea to be wrong.

Oh ok cool.......... where is it?