But if I ask you your definition of lovemaking, you would probably describe a physical act, and only mention "love" as a motivator, which would distinguish lovemaking from just having sex, where the motivator could be anything from horniness to being drunk. So what if love is the motivator for IVF? And how many times would you say horniness or drunkeness has been the motivating factor for deciding to go with IVF?

I think you're right, Cathy, about me not being able to understand your view until I understand that sacredness is important to you and yours, but the problem is I can't include sacredness into the equation until I have a definition for it, and I also doubt you would be able to provide a definition for it that would be suitable for me in the real working world.

(August 10, 2015 at 1:22 pm)Exian Wrote: But if I ask you your definition of lovemaking, you would probably describe a physical act, and only mention "love" as a motivator, which would distinguish lovemaking from just having sex, where the motivator could be anything from horniness to being drunk. So what if love is the motivator for IVF? And how many times would you say horniness or drunkeness has been the motivating factor for deciding to go with IVF?

I'm sure love is always a motivator for IVF.

That doesn't make the process of masturbating into a container while some doctor creates new human life on a petri dish, a sacred, holy process, though.

(August 10, 2015 at 1:34 pm)Exian Wrote: I think you're right, Cathy, about me not being able to understand your view until I understand that sacredness is important to you and yours, but the problem is I can't include sacredness into the equation until I have a definition for it, and I also doubt you would be able to provide a definition for it that would be suitable for me in the real working world.

If I used the word holy instead, would that make more sense? They can be interchangeable.

(August 10, 2015 at 1:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(August 10, 2015 at 1:22 pm)Exian Wrote: But if I ask you your definition of lovemaking, you would probably describe a physical act, and only mention "love" as a motivator, which would distinguish lovemaking from just having sex, where the motivator could be anything from horniness to being drunk. So what if love is the motivator for IVF? And how many times would you say horniness or drunkeness has been the motivating factor for deciding to go with IVF?

I'm sure love is always a motivator for IVF.

That doesn't make the process of masturbating into a container while some doctor creates new human life on a petri dish, a sacred, holy process, though.

What would? What does make something a sacred, holy process? Explaining that would help me greatly to understand your view.

(August 10, 2015 at 1:35 pm)Exian Wrote:

(August 10, 2015 at 1:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm sure love is always a motivator for IVF.

That doesn't make the process of masturbating into a container while some doctor creates new human life on a petri dish, a sacred, holy process, though.

What would? What does make something a sacred, holy process? Explaining that would help me greatly to understand your view.

Only if God deems it such.

(August 10, 2015 at 1:35 pm)Exian Wrote:

(August 10, 2015 at 1:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm sure love is always a motivator for IVF.

That doesn't make the process of masturbating into a container while some doctor creates new human life on a petri dish, a sacred, holy process, though.

What would? What does make something a sacred, holy process? Explaining that would help me greatly to understand your view.

Masturbating into a vagina, apparently -_-

(August 10, 2015 at 1:42 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(August 10, 2015 at 1:35 pm)Exian Wrote: What would? What does make something a sacred, holy process? Explaining that would help me greatly to understand your view.

Only if God deems it such.

Do vaccinations desecrate a child?

(August 10, 2015 at 1:18 pm)Alex K Wrote: @CL

See, you can consider sacred whatever you want. The problem I (we) have with your view is that it seems so disconnected from any actual concerns about actual human beings and their well being and instead focuses on something so seemingly arbitrary that it almost appears insane. Imagine there's a cure for a disease and people are opposed to it because the pills have the wrong color. This is how your views (on this particular issue) appear to outsiders.

Do you think I lack concern for human beings?

(not sure if that's what you're saying, so sorry if not)

As for your second part, I don't know what to say. If you view my belief regarding this the same way you would view someone saying it's wrong to take a pill to save a life because it's the wrong color, then that's how you see it and that's fine. I think it's unfortunate that you see it that way, and that you possibly think little of me because of it, but you are entitled to your own thoughts of course.

So CL I'm still a bit confused on why IVF is immoral to the Catholic church. I don't remember that being covered in any of my classes when attending a Catholic school, but then IVF wasn't as wide spread then so maybe the church didn't have an opinion yet. I saw your answer but I don't recall the bible speaking to this subject so I don't know how it fell under the "sacred" umbrella. Is it the mindset that we were made a certain way as part of God's plan.

If so then I have some follow up questions. Why would Catholic hospitals offer medical care? By that logic anything that happens would be God's plan and to intervene would interfere with his sacred plan. Also since we know IVF happens and that's outside of God's plan does that were deviating further and thus God's experiment is out of control? If so can we expect a flood?

EDIT So you replied to another while I was trying to get this in my stupid phone. So the problem with the process is the masturbation in which to harvest the sperm? My bible quotes are a bit rusty but I thought our seed should not fall to the ground. Isn't sex with a barren woman doing that more so than IVF? Because one is pleasure with no chance of children and the other isn't.