Quote:Quran has put special emphasis on the skin. Skin is a sensory organ. That is an accurate and more than sufficient information for today’s scientist as he does not need further information like skin has pain receptors, which produces pain signals to brain when it burns.

Yes the quran puts emphasis on the fact that burning skin repeatedly will hurt, no information about pain receptors, the brain, the heart or any scientific information whatsoever.  That's why it is not a miracle.

It's not even an odd coincidence, or strange

(August 10, 2015 at 11:04 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Yes the quran puts emphasis on the fact that burning skin repeatedly will hurt, no information about pain receptors, the brain, the heart or any scientific information whatsoever.  That's why it is not a miracle.

It's not even an odd coincidence, or strange

Yep.  If anything, it just shows that they are fans of burning people. . . not really a good tenet for a peaceful religion imo.

(August 10, 2015 at 1:43 am)Kitan Wrote: The only true miracle is that Harris will not allow his mind to work properly.

Or perhaps you should break the wall of lust and look at the truth hidden in everything.

(August 10, 2015 at 1:44 am)McDoogins Wrote: To me miracles are just coincidences.

Nine points in my post are not coincidences. They are fundamental and inescapable scientific facts.

(August 10, 2015 at 5:32 am)bennyboy Wrote: Harris, numerology is a big fail.

I have not yet touched Abjad. The numbers I had given represent the repetition of certain words or they are references to specific verses in Quran. If you think Abjad is a big fail then you should give some proof with references. How much I know, people from all faiths and creeds in the Arab world are using Abjad without any hesitation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abjad

http://rogerburrowsimages.com/altair-des...d-designs/

(August 10, 2015 at 5:32 am)bennyboy Wrote: At best, it shows that the writers of the Quran knew some things, and that they liked to add hidden puzzles to the Quran for people to figure out and be wowed by.

They knew what? Perhaps, they knew something like:

Big Bang, Expanding Universe, Solar Apex, Orbits, Deep Ocean Currents, Halocline, Human Embryo, Chromosomes, Alien Iron, etc. etc. etc.

“Ah! Ye are those who fell to disputing (Even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! But why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and ye who know not!”
Ali Imran (3)
-Verse 66-

“Yet there is among men such a one as disputes about Allah, without Knowledge, without Guidance, and without a Book of Enlightenment,-”
Al Hajj (22)
-Verse 8-

(August 10, 2015 at 5:32 am)bennyboy Wrote: At worst, it means you and other "students" of the Quran have way to much free time, and are whipping yourself into a schizophrenic frenzy looking for ricidulous and pointless "meanings" in your religious book.

Why do not you refute those “Ridiculous and pointless "meanings!"” The whole atheist world would raise you on the shoulders.

(August 10, 2015 at 5:32 am)bennyboy Wrote: What it doesn't do is show that something supernatural has occurred,

“Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators?”
Ath-Thuur (52)
-Verse 35-

(August 10, 2015 at 5:32 am)bennyboy Wrote: or that an all-powerful Skydaddy had anything to do with its creation.

“It is We Who have placed you with authority on earth, and provided you therein with means for the fulfilment of your life: small are the thanks that ye give! ”
Al A'raf (7)
-Verse 10-

Can anyone live on any other planet equally as we live on earth?

(August 10, 2015 at 6:10 am)robvalue Wrote: Calling something a miracle, supernatural, magic, anything like this, is always an argument from ignorance.
It's saying, "I don't find any of the standard explanations for this event, if there are any, satisfactory. I also believe that no explanations will ever be forthcoming at any point in the future that I will find satisfactory. So since I've ruled all those out somehow, that leaves magic/miracles."
Or to put it another way, it's setting your belief at "magic" then holding onto it until you are proved wrong. Either way, it's a hopelessly flawed way of going about things. No one ever learns anything or improves understanding this way.

Stop parroting, bring real stuff, and prove that Quran is a manmade book.

(August 10, 2015 at 10:44 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Using your logic I can prove ancient people didn't know something if they didn't mention it, you haven't found a single written statement from ancient times which say being hit in the groin by wood causes pain.

Only the strike of wood can cause pain in groin. Prove it!

If you fail to prove it (and surely you would fail) then try to prove that ancient people did not make any statement about something on which they had firm knowledge. If you fail to bring some evidence on that either then simply agree that YOUR ARGUMENT IS WRONG.

(August 11, 2015 at 3:46 am)Harris Wrote:

(August 10, 2015 at 5:32 am)bennyboy Wrote: At best, it shows that the writers of the Quran knew some things, and that they liked to add hidden puzzles to the Quran for people to figure out and be wowed by.

They knew what? Perhaps, they knew something like:

Big Bang, Expanding Universe, Solar Apex, Orbits, Deep Ocean Currents, Halocline, Human Embryo, Chromosomes, Alien Iron, etc. etc. etc.

Unlike you, I don't doubt that the early Muslims knew a lot about the world-- especially about geology or oceanology. As for this 23 mentions = Chromosomes bullshit, you're just making stuff up.

Look, to demonstrate that something is a miracle, you have to do two things
1) Show they really meant to say what you insist they were saying (23 mentions of male and female intends to hint at chromosomes)
2) Show that they couldn't have known the things you insist they couldn't have known.

What you've done is taken a bunch of numbers, and read into those numbers meanings that the writers of the Quran are not known to have had. This stuff might be an exciting confirmation of your cultural bias, but to anyone else, it just shows how weak religious claims to science really are.

So Harris is basically the muslim equivalent of Professor?

I guess Allah stopped giving out amazing scientific knowledge after the Quran, right? I've not heard of any follow up books. After some stuff about how to burn yourself for fun, he leaves us to figure out the rest ourselves.

Really, if whatever god has done fuck all for 1500+ years, can't we close his account?

(August 11, 2015 at 7:29 am)Iroscato Wrote: So Harris is basically the muslim equivalent of Professor?

Yep.
The Ironically named Professor.

Quote:Only the strike of wood can cause pain in groin. Prove it!

If you fail to prove it (and surely you would fail) then try to prove that ancient people did not make any statement about something on which they had firm knowledge. If you fail to bring some evidence on that either then simply agree that YOUR ARGUMENT IS WRONG.

Ok so you're using logic to come to the conclusion that people did know that striking the groin with wood would cause pain.
But yet you fail to see that people probably did know that burning may cause numbness to damaged skin using the exact same logic.
You gave me pictures of people being hit in the groin, I can give you more pictures and accounts of people using fire for cooking, people being tortured by fire, fire used in war, people using fire for light and for warmth and for boiling water in ancient times.
You say even though you can't find a written account saying wood in the groin causes pain it's logical.
I'm telling you that it is logical that people in ancient times knew that skin could go numb after burning because they would have experienced it and known the symptoms of it, that is much more logical than believing that a vague mention of burning and replacing skin is miraculous.
I know I've already told you this and you failed to understand it before because you then replied saying something along the lines of "But they didn't understand the mechanism of the numbness."
The quran gives no mechanism for the numbness, the quran actually doesn't mention numbness it just simply says the fire will hurt, the skin will be replaced and the person will taste punishment, but if you want to assume that the quran is talking about nerve damage from fire that's also not miraculous.
Numbness, sensation, pain, these things aren't explained in the quran beyond what ancient people knew, they experience fire from cooking, torture methods, execution, lighting, the boiling of water, they knew it caused pain.
You actually would have a hard time explaining why ancient people would not know the symptoms of 3rd degree burns.  Why would an ancient person not know about it?
Do you at least agree that ancient people did experience 3rd degree burns?  And do you not logically think that if they did experience it they would have experienced numbness on the burned skin caused by nerve damage? 

I'm not asking did they know about nerve damage, I'm asking do you think ancient people experienced nerve damage because of fire ever?

(August 13, 2015 at 3:17 am)paulpablo Wrote: Do you at least agree that ancient people did experience 3rd degree burns? 

You don't get it at all. The ancient people didn't know that burns cause pain (or numbness) before getting burns. They COULDN'T have known those things without getting burns. Therefore burns were given by Allah to demonstrate the miraculous nature of the Quran. . . or of fire, or skin or something.

Just like someone couldn't know that salt and fresh water stay separate for a long time, unless they actually saw (or knew someone who knew someone who saw) a river flowing into the ocean. Therefore, rivers, oceans, and salt and fresh water are all miracles. Oh yeah, and the Quran. That'd definitely a miracle.

If they didn't know it, how did they write it down?

Bit of a problem there.