(August 27, 2015 at 10:16 am)Rhythm Wrote: Oh, I give up, -must- have been magic. Guess what.....still don't care, still not joining your club. Satisfied?
The purpose of my writings is to convey the true message by way of Logical, Rational and Conceivable reasoning. If you take heed and modify your life style in compliance with the truth then good for you, otherwise you are the owner of your choice.
For instance, is there any reality in the concept of “Nothingness.” Do you really think that extremely complex yet orderly structures in nature, which are controlled by different forces with extreme precisions, are nothing but a matter of chance? Is human conscious and intelligence, one of the most complex phenomenon in the universe, came out from nowhere.
To me chance and nothingness are no more than absurd and self-deceiving ideas.
(August 27, 2015 at 10:51 am)Pandæmonium Wrote: So you want evidence that the Quran is not divinely inspired? Ok, the evidence is your very shoddy and poorly reasoned argument as to why it is, coupled with the complete and utter lack of evidence to support the claims you are making.
Perhaps, I am the only person who is giving authentic historical and scientific references along with my arguments and justifications. You guys are rejecting Quran based on mere speculations. Only saying Quran is a comic book is not adequate.
RE-read bold part. There is no reason to believe anything you are positing based on the (little to no) evidence you have given.
Everything you have posited thus far is ignored for this reason alone.
I'm with Rhythm. No reason to join your club based on what you've said.
You seem to be a well educated person. Tell me what is better:
“(Little to no) evidence” or
No evidence at all
(August 27, 2015 at 8:52 pm)bennyboy Wrote: And the Quran doesn't show a deep understanding of scientific facts, either.
Sure, if a law book gives reference to some scientific fact then the purpose of that reference is to augment the meaning of “LAW.” That reference do not serve to provide in depth understanding on that scientific reference, for that there are science books.
(August 27, 2015 at 8:52 pm)bennyboy Wrote: First of all, this idea was in the Old Testament, maybe 1000 years before the Quran. Second, it is not a scientific idea, but a statement of observable reality. Also, clay doesn't turn into sperm, there's a lot more to it than that. Important details are missing, and now you say. . . wait for it. . . "Yeahbut the Quran is not a science text book."
Quran teaches us that all following books are the word of God:
Zabur (Psalms) the holy book given to Prophet Dawud (David),
Tawrat (Torah) the holy book given to Prophet Musa (Moses),
Injil (Gospel) the Holy book given to Prophet Isa (Jesus), and
Quran the Holy book given to Prophet Mohammad
As being a Muslim, I trust and believe in the untouched and uncorrupted sections of all above mentioned books.
Regarding clay, think about the food that all living beings are consuming. This food whether in form of herbs or flesh is the product of soil and water. Look at the chemistry of human body and you will realise that all the elements of human body in fact are similar to the elements found in soil and water. We are not getting something unusual from the heavens that is nurturing our bodies rather we are consuming soil and water in different organic forms and when we die we go back to that same soil and turn out to be soil after sometime.
(August 27, 2015 at 8:52 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Look at any number of mythologies, and they talking about how something comes from nothing, then grows into even more. Unless you know WHY the Quran writers said that, you do not know that they are talking about the expanding of the universe as we know it, or just the idea that God has the capacity to make stuff.
No man has the capacity of making stuff out of oblivion.
The verses of Quran are clear and precise in their literal meanings. Previously, the verses, which were thought to be ambiguous, turned out to be vibrant and clear to human understanding as advancements in science revealed hidden facts of nature.
I do not know any mythology, which points to some present world scientific fact that was not known only 200 years back in time. In case you know such a mythology then I would really appreciate if you share this valuable knowledge with everyone.
(August 27, 2015 at 8:52 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I can't speak for anyone who has access to Western education but chooses a fairy tale for their world view. Maybe they weren't paying attention in science class, or didn't go on to university and study 1st-year logic?
I think you have no idea in what number people are accepting Islam. Moreover, they are people from all walks of life.
As for logic, is there any better logic than:
• There is nothing called “Nothingness”
• There is nothing called “Chance”
• There is nothing without a “Cause”
Perhaps, it is time for you to recheck your logic.
(August 27, 2015 at 8:52 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I don't need to deeply study history to tell you that anybody with eyes can see that where a river joins the ocean, you can see a line between the two patches of color. I've seen it myself, and I have to assume that desert people like the prophet Mohammed weren't as stupid and uneducated as you keep insisting they are.
Prophet Mohammad and most of his contemporaries were illiterate but not stupid. They were humble and intelligent because after realizing the truth they had not rejected it arrogantly only for the sake of their social status.
People have eyes and they can observe things, no doubt. Point of my argument is, without having any hints people cannot develop sophisticated scientific concepts like Expanding Universe. They need special scientific aid to make such observations and exactly to that technical aid, ancient people had no access.
Yes, anyone can see the difference between two patches of colour. However, for such observation you have to have two patches of colour.
Have you any idea how big Arabian Desert is? Do you know Saudi Arabia is 15th largest country in the world by area, which is part of Arabian Desert? Do you know there is no river in the whole of Arabian Desert that may fall into some sea and cause Halocline?
Trust me, even if you deeply study not only the Arabian history but also history of the world, you will not find any record that may even resemble to halocline.
(August 27, 2015 at 8:52 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I don't find the words Big Bang anywhere in the Quran. What I find are relatively ambiguous statements that you choose to insist mean the Big Bang.
What other meaning can you give to the following verse?
“Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? … ”
Al Anbiyaa' (21)
-Verse 30-
(August 27, 2015 at 8:52 pm)bennyboy Wrote: No. You haven't established that they knew the universe is expanding.
I have never said, “Ancient people knew about Expanding Universe.” You are saying this.
(August 27, 2015 at 8:52 pm)bennyboy Wrote: As for the darkness of the ocean, I'm surprised by your lack of life experience. If you go into the ocean and dive just a couple meters down, you can instantly discover that the ocean is dark. I mean, seriously. Just go swimming and fucking look down. It's dark down there.
Why only Quran is mentioning about that darkness and about deep ocean currents? Why not anyone else?
(August 27, 2015 at 8:52 pm)bennyboy Wrote: You have to first prove they were actually talking about the expansion of the physical universe, not just a metaphor for God creating a bunch of stuff. But you can't, because you take a single line of scripture, and add a hundred lines of metacommentary and interpretation.
Alright then, give your version of commentary to the following verse.
“With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.”
Adz-Dzaariya (51)
-Verse 47-PM Find
Remember, at the time when Yusuf Ali was translating this verse, Hubble was unaware about this scientific fact.
(August 27, 2015 at 11:23 pm)paulpablo Wrote: 1) The quran is not mentioning that it is NECESSARY, it says that they may taste the penalty.
If I say I am opening a door so that I may leave the house, I am not saying that it is essential, needed to be done so that I can leave my house.
If I say it is necessary for me to open a door in order to leave the house I'm saying that it is essential, needed to be done.
I am opening a door so that I may leave my house, but I may also smash through a window and get out that way, I might climb through a hole in the wall or dig a tunnel out of the house, I MAY do many things in order to leave the house.
So the quran is giving no specific information, it is basically saying its going to burn the skin repeatedly as a form of punishment. So that they may feel the torment.
The quran is not saying anything about what is necessary in order to feel pain.
The only information given is that burning skin causes pain.
“Burning skin causes pain” is sufficient information for a rational person to avoid fire at any price. Clever person is the one who saves himself from the hellfire.
(August 27, 2015 at 11:23 pm)paulpablo Wrote: 2) As we already discussed this is just one of the many methods people could feel punishment, other organs also have pain receptors.
I totally agree!
(August 27, 2015 at 11:23 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I don't understand why you're uncomfortable answering a question that only requires a simple yes or no. Do you think people in ancient times would have EXPERIENCED 3rd or 4th degree burns.
I did NOT ask the question would they have understood 3rd degree burns, the degrees of burns is just a term we are using in order to communicate with each other.
I could just as easily ask, do you believe ancient people experienced severe enough burns to cause nerve damage?
It doesn't matter if they knew what nerves were or not.
Remember we are talking about the quran? That was the topic wasn't it? The quran doesn't mention degrees of burns or nerve damage or anything but you seem to think the quran mentions the symptoms of 3rd degree/severe burns.
So I'm asking you a simple question, do you think ancient people experienced the symptoms of 3rd degree burns? Yes or no will be fine, I don't need an in depth answer.
In simple words Quran is saying when people’s skin would be roasted in hellfire, God will give them new skins so they continue feeling the punishment.
Why there would be a need to replace skin because burnt skin does not feel the pain. In this short verse, God has encompassed complete science of skin.
(August 28, 2015 at 6:09 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Bringing my sledge hammer to a pillow fight again I suppose...
Clearly Harris has no answer on how to fast anywhere other than the Earth. Muhammad didn't know people would be needed to fast in space otherwise there would be Iyaht or Hadith address the topic. Allah, for some reason, didn't foresee this. The Quran even says Allah created humans to be weak and yet it is left up to weak humans to retrofit the Quran.
You have structured your argument totally based upon speculations and conspiracies what most anti-Islam sites are propagating.
Before he gets Prophet Hood at the age of 40, Prophet Mohammad did not know how to perform Islamic prayer. He did not know how one should pray in normal circumstances and indeed, he did not know how one should pray in an abnormal situation.
Quran and Hadith has covered all possible circumstances, which a person may face at the time of prayer.
1. To perform AsSalat (one of five daily prayers) first condition is ablution i.e. to wash certain parts of body with water according to the instructions given in Quran and Hadith.
You do not need to be in space to face a deficiency of water. There are plentiful situations on earth when people may not have access to water or they cannot use water due to some health issues. In such situations, people can perform Tayammum.
“O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 43-
Tayammum can be performed on uncontaminated piece of earth like:
• Earth (fine or compacted)
• Sand
• Lump of dry clay
• Pebbles or stone not mineral or precious stones
2. Second condition of the prayer is to face Kaaba in Mecca. God commanded in Quran:
“From whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from the Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.”
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 149-
Again, there are many circumstances when people may not find right direction of Kaaba. This situation implies mostly to those who are in a travel or arrived at some unfamiliar place.
In case, a person unintentionally turns his face in a direction other than the Kaaba and prays then his prayer is valid. If a person cannot face Kaaba because he is travelling in a train, aeroplane, or spacecraft then he should face in the direction of Kaaba according to his best estimations and physical possibilities.
“To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.”
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 115-
3. Third obligation is to follow right time of prayers, which people can judge by looking at different positions of the sun. However, many places in the world are such where people cannot orient right time of the prayer. For example, people living near the poles are similar to people who are in space, as both of them cannot fix time of their prayers.
Muslim community have a common consensus on the ruling of prayer times pertinent to such situations. In the polar region, a Muslim can synchronize his prayer time with the prayer time in the nearest region where proper sunrise and sunset happens on daily basis or he can synchronize his prayer time with the prayer time in Mecca.
This rules is equally viable for people who wants to pray in space.
4. Fourth obligation is to perform prayer in a way that Prophet Mohammad had shown:
Prophet Mohammad said:
“Pray as you have seen me praying.”
Hadith No.604
Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol.1
A single prayer has many cycles of bowing down and prostrations. However, many people due to old age or due to some health issues are not able to perform these physical actions or a person may maybe in a situation where it is impossible for him to bowing down or prostrate. For example, a person cannot prostrate in zero gravity. In such situations, people can pray while standing, sitting and even lying by signs and gestures.
“Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.”
Ali Imran (3)
-Verse 191-
God has no intention to put human into a hardship.
“On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear…”
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 286-
One of the purpose of prayer is to bring people to righteousness and to a modest way of living.
“It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing.”
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 177-
If someone prays for showing himself as a pious person and through it to seek some material benefit then that person is an infidel hypocrite who is living for the quest of his desires.
“The Hypocrites - they think they are over-reaching Allah, but He will over- reach them: When they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold Allah in remembrance;”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 142-
(August 28, 2015 at 6:09 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: • Also, the embryo does not cling to anything, in floats in the womb.
WRONG! This statement alone is more than sufficient to expose you as a lair or the one who literally have no knowledge about embryology.
http://study.com/academy/lesson/the-plac...ction.html
(August 28, 2015 at 6:09 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: • An embryo does not look like "chewed flesh". This is an insult to the intelligence.
• Does not look like a clot either.
Better, you watch what top scientists in the field of Embryology have to say about Embryology in Quran. Their work on Embryology is highly acknowledged throughout the world, translated in several languages, and many universities and colleges have adopted their work as textbooks for their students. Please pay attention to every single word of these highly acclaimed scientists.
Unfortunately, video quality is poor.
https://vimeo.com/65748594
P. Z. Myers may speculate few deceiving ideas by twisting and distorting realities. That is his maximum limit because practicality, he has no evidences to support his claims.
Show this video to P. Z. Myers and ask him to negate the facts, which these eminent embryologists have shown to the world.
(August 28, 2015 at 6:09 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: All verse translations below are Abullah Yusuf Ali.
I have another problem with the Quran and this is historical, not scientific. The Quran claims that Mecca is thousands of years old, the first settlement on Earth even:
3:96 Lo! the first Sanctuary appointed for mankind was that at Becca, a blessed place, a guidance to the peoples;
2:127 And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the House, (Abraham prayed): Our Lord! Accept from us (this duty). Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower.
How can this be demonstrated archeologically?
You would need to prove that Abraham existed and show that people have been visiting Mecca from the time of Abraham all the way to the time of Muhammad. We would expect to see lots of evidence for human activity around the site of the Masjid al-Haram since ancient times, but we do not.
There are many sites on the internet, which are claiming,
“The Archaeological Evidence for the Bible is Non-Existent”
“There is no Archaeological Evidence for the Exodus”
“How Archaeology Disproves Biblical History”
“There is NO Archaeological Evidence for the Book of Mormon”
Etc.
And now:
“There is No Archaeological Evidence that Abraham had built Kaaba” or
“There is No Archaeological Evidence that Abraham had ever existed.”
Each site is giving such a long-winded justifications that may easily swirl the head of a first time reader.
Age of TIMAEUS is around 2500 years and the age of GOSPEL is about 2000 years. People like you are fighting and proving that Bible is a fictitious literature because there is no archaeological evidences for its existence whereas the same people respect and give honour to TIMAEUS, which is much older than Gospel and has no archaeological evidences as well. So why double standards.
Well, let me add my version to this list by saying:
“THERE IS NO ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF ARISTOTLE, PLATO, AND SOCRATES THEREFORE, THEY ARE FICTITIOUS CHARACTERS”
Does all that make sense to you? If yes, then go ahead, prove that Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates are not fictitious characters, and bring your ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCES to support this idea.
You are not playing with a full deck.
(August 28, 2015 at 6:09 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Next, there are verses that appears to contradict Tawheed. The Holy Spirit isn't something expect from Allah as the Quran is a rejection of Christianity and people have all sort of wonderful arguments against the Trinity. They say the Christian god isn't one and yet Allah has a Holy Spirit too:
97:4 Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:
If we look at the Tafsir for 97:4 we see Al-Jalalayn agrees with my analysis.
12:87 "O my sons! go ye and enquire about Joseph and his brother, and never give up hope of Allah's Soothing Mercy: truly no one despairs of Allah's Soothing Mercy, except those who have no faith."
It's not clear in the Yusuf Ali translation but Al-Jalalayn agrees that Iyah 12:87 is referring to the Spirit of Allah:
http://www.quranx.com/Tafsirs/12.87
Read following translations of (12:87) which are sufficient to give a clear perception to this verse and eliminate the need of additional commentaries:
Sahih International
O my sons, go and find out about Joseph and his brother and despair not of relief from Allah. Indeed, no one despairs of relief from Allah except the disbelieving people."
Muhsin Khan
"O my sons! Go you and enquire about Yusuf (Joseph) and his brother, and never give up hope of Allah's Mercy. Certainly no one despairs of Allah's Mercy, except the people who disbelieve."
Shakir
O my sons! Go and inquire respecting Yusuf and his brother, and despair not of Allah's mercy; surely none despairs of Allah's mercy except the unbelieving people.
Dr. Ghali
O my sons, go and inquire (Literally: grope, probe) about Yusuf and his brother, and do not despair of relief from Allah; surely none despairs of relief from Allah except the disbelieving people."
As you can see, this verse is not talking about Holy Spirit but about not losing Hope in God. Hope and Spirit are different concepts.
(August 28, 2015 at 6:09 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Quran 25:53 is also scientifically inaccurate:
It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.
Stopspamming addresses the dishonesty surrounding this Iyaht beautifully and mixes fresh and salt water together, something anybody can try out at home.
Oh, WOW! I did not know you are Richard Dawkins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2IEvykdCpQ
(August 28, 2015 at 8:38 am)comet Wrote: "miracles" what things that happen 1 in a million times? it might happen 7000 times today.
record all the seriously sick people in a hospital for five years. Assign a proper probability function that describes the likely hood of said events. The following year make a prediction on how many you might see in the next two years. It's a bell curve thong.
We deploy statistics sometimes to describe repeating events that we are not sure what the mechanism is causing the event we see.
Anti-logical Fallacies of Ambiguity
You cannot give any rational reason on how modern scientific facts become part of 7th century Quran and this is a miracle of Quran.
(August 28, 2015 at 1:42 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I never made any statements about general people in todays world. You were asking a question about what I personally know about stars, I don't know any advanced calculations or techniques involving stars.
You asked if I agree with the statement that there are things obvious to me that aren't obvious to ancient people, Ok I agree with that.
You then said I know what stars are but to ancient people it was not obvious what they were looking at.
I told you I don't actually know that much about stars, I have been told within my lifetime exactly what stars are made from and what they are but I'm not an astronomer or anything like that so I don't use information about stars enough in my life to be able to have taken the information on board.
I probably know more about the distance stars are from earth than ancient people, and that they are bigger than the earth.
I know they aren't missiles used to launch at devils like the Quran describes.
But as far as constellations and the different stars of the night sky an ancient Egyptian or sailor probably knew how to use the stars for navigation more than me.
I'm not trying to be awkward when answering this question I'm just simply saying there are somethings they knew that I don't know about stars and some things I know they didn't know.
I don't see how any of this involves the Quran stating that stars are used to launch against devils.
Al Mulk (67) -Verse 5-
There is not much to add, just that the scientific nature of what God is referring to may be something which is not yet known to man - a number of the scientific miracles in the Quran were not known or understood until recently, so think of how many more facts people would realize with time.
(August 28, 2015 at 1:47 pm)paulpablo Wrote: No I'm simply saying that the quran doesn't mention which part of the body is responsible for the actual punishment of pain, what actually senses the punishment of pain is the brain.
Brain is an interpreter, which interprets sensory data into some kind of mind language. Without skin, it cannot generate sensory data on its own. Therefore, skin is responsible for the burning sensation not the brain.
(August 28, 2015 at 1:47 pm)paulpablo Wrote: The verse of the quran still makes sense if the heart is responsible for sensing pain. The quran verse does nothing to contradict any ancient idea of pain reception.
You can associate any presumption with this verse for the sake of enhancing your understanding but that would not affect the literal meaning until you literally change the wording of the verse. The literal meaning is complete and there is no loophole in this verse.
(August 28, 2015 at 2:02 pm)paulpablo Wrote: The quran doesn't exclude the heart being a central organ responsible for the sensation of pain, it doesn't say the heart doesn't sense that the skin is burned, it doesn't say the brain does sense the skin is burned, it simply says the skin is burned and it will cause pain.
If the heart WAS responsible for the sensation of pain the quran verse would still be totally 100% correct wouldn't it?
Your “IF” does not mean, that is the case. The verse give full augmentation to the word SKIN by the use of words like “roasted through,” “change,” and “new” and is not mistaken in showing that sense of burning is in the skin itself.
(August 28, 2015 at 2:02 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Ok because of this response of yours I think you don't understand what it means that ancient people thought the heart was responsible for the sensation of pain. I don't think you're fully aware, you show a total lack of understanding.
I could be wrong, to clarify if you do or don't understand what it means can you -please go more in depth about what you think it means? What does it mean that ancient people thought the heart was responsible for the sensation of pain? How exactly did they think it worked?
If you want to elaborate on why you think I did not understand then please proceed. Otherwise, I am not fond of riddles.
(August 29, 2015 at 12:10 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Any of the verses that include the phrase sent down, take your pick from any of them. There are some that are talking about quails, books, prophets.
Well, Sorry! Here I will not cooperate with you because initial query is yours.
