I remember Matt Dillahunty saying once that Jesus originally died in the story so that animal sacrifices would no longer be required when apologising to God. Then the story got elaborated yet further with all the other junk.

I can't find a reference to back it up, but he's usually on the money. Any takers?

(September 1, 2015 at 2:05 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(September 1, 2015 at 1:58 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote: Actually I did respond to the post directed towards me, all you have to do is look at the very top of this page. #121

Sorry I missed it and will respond to it later.

GC

No prob.

(September 1, 2015 at 2:08 pm)robvalue Wrote: I remember Matt Dillahunty saying once that Jesus originally died in the story so that animal sacrifices would no longer be required when apologising to God. Then the story got elaborated yet further with all the other junk.

I can't find a reference to back it up, but he's usually on the money. Any takers?

YOU LYING NO GOOD HEATHEN YOU!! The devil speaks from within you, repent in the blood of the lamb, and be redeemed!

Quote:This was not a law it was a teaching to make life easier for slave and to glorify Christ in the condition they were in,

Fuck you, G-C.  How typical that you think slaves should be happy being slaves.  Fuck your god, too.

You're such a despicable prick.

(September 1, 2015 at 4:39 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Quote:And Boru, you hit the nail on the head. It is not meant to be about reward and punishment. That's why I always say that those Christians who act a certain way simply in order to be rewarded in Heaven, or in order to avoid Hell, are missing the whole point. God loves us and He wants us to be with Him because He loves us, not simply for "rewarding" purposes. We "go to" Hell not as a punishment from God, as the article says, but because we chose to be away from Him.

Very well.  If Heaven and Hell are not meant as reward and punishment respectively, then one may as well be good and loving for its own sake.  Atheists (by and large) already do just that, so it isn't so much a question of rejecting God as it is one of not needing God in the first place.

But I think that rejecting the idea of Hell as a punishment is pretty hard to sustain.  Not only Biblically, but the notion of punishing sinners is found throughout Catholic dogma.

If God truly loves us, then it isn't easy to explain why sin (in the sense of the rejection of God) exists at all.  This isn't even a question of free will:  God could simply not allow the births of people who would reject him.  Since there are people who reject not only the person of God but the whole notion of God in toto (Your Humble Narrator, for instance), a fair conclusion is that God either doesn't exist, or that he doesn't love us all that much, or that his desire for us to be with him isn't all that strong.  Sort of a disinterested God, wouldn't you say?

Boru

Remember the basic rule in the Bible and in the Koran:  a person must believe and obey without exception or else he will thrown into the lake of fire or hell.  It doesn't matter if a person is "good" and without destructive faults.  It only matters if he believes and obeys the deity.  All of the stories in the Bible and in the Koran are based upon that simple rule.

(September 1, 2015 at 9:32 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Typical mistake, the commandments are not cumulative. Just because God commanded Noah to build an ark doesn't mean all believers must become sailors. The antediluvians had one command: be fruitful and multiply. The lack of explicit laws during the preflood period did not absolve people from justice. Following the flood the Noahide rules govern. The Abrahamic period was an age of conscience. Then came the ancient Israelite theocracy that required its own form of governance. When the temple was destroyed so also was temple worship. Christ raised a new temple in the heart of each man and woman and along with it a deeper understanding of the principles of justice and mercy behind the laws of each dispensation.

Yep, godboy was full of mercy when he cursed whole towns to eternity in hell in Matthew 11:21-24.  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...JV;TLB;CEV.  And why will they end up in hell?  Because the people didn't believe in his parlor tricks.

Burn baby burn.
John 15:6  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...JV;TLB;CEV

Quote:There's nothing in Catholic doctrine that says Hell is a "punishment" God casts on us. That's exactly what the article I posted was about... it was about Catholic theologians explicitly saying that it isn't that lol. Sure, it has been described as punishment, and it has also been described as a state of being as seen on the OP. But since we can't claim to know for sure, neither description is official Church doctrine. It's all speculation and theories.  

Not to put to fine a point on it, but...

The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs"

Source:  The Catechism of The Catholic Church.  Which, according to John Paul II is '...a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion and a sure norm for teaching the faith'.  So the claim that 'there's nothing in Catholic doctrine that says Hell is a "punishment" ' is simply not true.

Boru

(September 1, 2015 at 12:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(September 1, 2015 at 12:24 am)Cecelia Wrote: If that's the case, then god could have simply made one rule: Thou Shalt Not Be An Asshole.

Why would the church have so many laws about sex, about tithing, about the clothes you wear, and the food you eat, not to mention worshiping which is considered extremely important.  If just being a good person was what mattered, then surely there wouldn't be so many laws about what people can and cannot do.  Instead of trying to convert people, going door to door asking "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior?"  they'd ask "You're not a jackass are you?"

Well first of all, there are no laws about food or clothing lol. 

I think there's an entire spectrum for being a good person, and the more closely you follow the Christian Virtues (as the Church calls them), the more "good" you are. Humility, kindness, temperance, chastity, patience, charity, diligence. Of course, you don't need to be Christian to follow these virtues. There are plenty of Christians who don't, and plenty of non Christians who do. But like I told Sal, I think it can help set you up for success if you truly try to follow the teachings of Christ.

The next time you go to church wear a bikini and bring some hot pizza.  See where that gets you.

(September 1, 2015 at 5:44 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Quote:There's nothing in Catholic doctrine that says Hell is a "punishment" God casts on us. That's exactly what the article I posted was about... it was about Catholic theologians explicitly saying that it isn't that lol. Sure, it has been described as punishment, and it has also been described as a state of being as seen on the OP. But since we can't claim to know for sure, neither description is official Church doctrine. It's all speculation and theories.  

Not to put to fine a point on it, but...

The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs"

Source:  The Catechism of The Catholic Church.  Which, according to John Paul II is '...a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion and a sure norm for teaching the faith'.  So the claim that 'there's nothing in Catholic doctrine that says Hell is a "punishment" ' is simply not true.

Boru

"There's nothing in Catholic doctrine that says Hell is a "punishment" God casts on us." 

I have addressed the CCC with HN already, and also showed where the article in the OP specifically addresses it too. 

(September 1, 2015 at 5:47 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(September 1, 2015 at 12:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well first of all, there are no laws about food or clothing lol. 

I think there's an entire spectrum for being a good person, and the more closely you follow the Christian Virtues (as the Church calls them), the more "good" you are. Humility, kindness, temperance, chastity, patience, charity, diligence. Of course, you don't need to be Christian to follow these virtues. There are plenty of Christians who don't, and plenty of non Christians who do. But like I told Sal, I think it can help set you up for success if you truly try to follow the teachings of Christ.

The next time you go to church wear a bikini and bring some hot pizza.  See where that gets you.

Lol, just because it's inappropriate to wear just a bikini in certain places (including the mall, the movie theater, the grocery store, your inlaw's house party, etc), doesn't mean the Church teaches that wearing a bikini is a sin. I use one all the time at the beach, the pool, or anywhere else that involves swimming.