Boy I sure wish I could hear that better. Anyone know a way to get more volume on a lap top (Mac).

(September 4, 2015 at 8:09 am)Whateverist the White Wrote:

(September 3, 2015 at 10:24 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Group-think corrupts.

Hits the nail on the head.  Hard to have integrity and be a sheep.

Thank you. I think to say there is a problem with religion and morality is almost self apparent. The question really is why is there a connection between religion and immorality? Well I believe the reason is that religion is a form of group think. Where people are told what to think and how to behave and what to believe rather than figuring it out for themselves. That's one of the pieces.

The other is that religion is stuck in the past. Christianity and even Islam might have been moral steps up for the times they were conceived. If you went back 1000 years and told someone to be nice to their slaves, that's a moral step up for them. If you tell someone today to be nice to their slaves, it's a giant moral step backwards. That's the second problem. When you combine the two, group think and past morality, you end up with religion corrupting morality.

(September 3, 2015 at 7:57 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: Former member Jonb emailed me the link to this talk which I found pretty moving.  I'm inclined too say that religion certainly can lead to some pretty bad morality but I'm inclined to think that is just because they run on the same human platform we all do.  We all have the potential to misunderstand and to paint others as enemies.  We are all homo fairly sapient, not completely wise.  From what he says here, I think religion has and continues to be a device which can focus and magnify some of our worse tendencies and bring them to bear in troubling ways.  Of course many religious groups also do charity work.

I don't think I'm inclined to accept the conclusion that religion is, all things considered, more a force for evil and backwardness, not for good and progress.  At best, I think it is correct to point out that religion is potentially dangerous since it deals in unsupportable claims.  Just look at our poor friend the professor who is constantly disturbed by apocryphal portents.  I'm not ready to concede it cannot be a positive experience for some however.  

Should we embrace anti-theism?  I'm not there yet, how about you?

https://youtu.be/hAuwB6zcdVo

Wow. That was an excellent speech by that guy and it covered everything. I can see myself referring back to that video many times in the future.

I think religion does indeed corrupt morality not least by making everything black and white and arbitrary in all its laws and commandments. I think morality is much more contextual than that, and should be. I think someone will always be left out in the cold if blanket statements of what's right and wrong are made because it doesn't take into account individual differences or individual circumstances.

(September 4, 2015 at 10:29 am)Whateverist the White Wrote: Boy I sure wish I could hear that better.  Anyone know a way to get more volume on a lap top (Mac).

*rough transcript of important bits

Hitchens' point: Religious doctrine makes otherwise good people do wicked things. Circumcision (genital mutilation) is his example.

Rabbi Harold Kushner Wrote:"Christopher, I've gotta call you down on referring to circumcision as genital mutilation. My son cried more at his first haircut than he did at his Bris!"

*some audience laughter

"...and statistically, the only long-term effect that it seems to have upon people is that it increases their chances of winning a Nobel Prize!"

*more laughter

Christopher Hitchens Wrote:"I can't find the compulsory mutilation of the genitals of children a subject for humour in that way. Or flippancy in that way...

...(circumcision) can be life threatening. We have the records, I can show them to you, of hundreds and hundreds, in the United States, of boy babies who've died or had life-threatening infections as a result of this disgusting practice. That a person as humane as yourself can sit here and think of that as a fit subject for humour shows what I mean. Religion makes morally normal and decent people say and do disgusting and wicked things!"

As an example of how religion CAN corrupt morality, Second Nexus posted an article yesterday by Alison Wilkinson about the rampant sex slavery ring that is RUN by ISIS.  I don't know if I can post a link yet, but a search of "ISIS'S Sex Slavery Flourishes, Emboldened by Legal and Religious Justifications" will find the article on the Second Nexus site.  

Their version of Islam supports this practice because women and children are "property".  Not only that, but many of the Yazidi civilians who are kidnapped to be sold are considered animals, because they do not practice ISIS'S version of Islam.  The people running these slavery rings keep expressing surprise that anyone should object.  It's approved practice, according to the Quran!

Yeah, very good point. *life flashes before my eyes thinking how lucky I was to have survive*

(September 3, 2015 at 10:24 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Group-think corrupts.

This. Absolutely. Whether coupled with religion or not.

(September 3, 2015 at 7:57 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: Should we embrace anti-theism?  I'm not there yet, how about you?

I see this on the same lines as the heated discussion about violent video games. Religion offers persons with an already corrupted morality a pretext to act on their vileness. It doesn't turn an otherwise decent being into a raving monster.

Most religious persons just go about their business like everybody else. So, no. I certainly don't embrace anti theism. Even more so, since it's an ideology like any other flag to rally behind.

(September 3, 2015 at 10:23 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Pyrrho, do you think I'm a bad person?

Because of your religious beliefs, you give money to an organization that protects child molesters and enables them to molest more children because of it.

If you gave up your religion, you would not do that and would be better for it.

(September 4, 2015 at 12:14 pm)Neimenovic Wrote:

(September 3, 2015 at 10:24 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Group-think corrupts.

This. Absolutely. Whether coupled with religion or not.

To be fair that does depend on the group.