(September 30, 2015 at 4:19 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(September 30, 2015 at 3:51 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: [...]
Can you explain why killing a baby in utero is ok based solely on the decision of the mother (as you said you have no say), but killing a baby a minute after its born is murder?  Is it a different baby?  Is it any less dependent on the mother than when in utero?  
[...]

Of course the child is way less dependent on the mother after the birth. Are you even serious? That's why when a mother dies during or shortly after child-birth, a child can survive, whereas if she dies a few months before - it can't, unless perhaps some doctors decide to "play god" in order to artificially keep the fetus alive. An option, that - as you probably know - was not available until very recently and has very small chances of success even with everything modern medicine has to offer.

Also - nobody's advocating 3rd trimester abortions. The way you're presenting the issue is simplistic and basically - an attempt at appeal to emotions. Which is understandable, since you don't seem have any actual arguments at your disposal.

With all due respect, I think you're misstating Kingpin's position. He's actually asking very good, relevant questions.

(September 30, 2015 at 4:20 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: One thing I can say is that I would never judge anyone that had an abortion for any reason whatsoever.  

Well that's a refreshing thing to hear. Which means I gotta ask. If you aren't going to judge anyone for having an abortion, should the courts? Simply, should abortions be illegal?

(September 30, 2015 at 4:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

---

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=life+definition

life
līf/
noun

1. 1.
   the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.
   "the origins of life"
   synonyms:
   existence, being, living, animation; More
   [url=https://www.google.com/search?biw=1242&bih=585&q=define+creation&sa=X&ved=0CCMQ_SowAGoVChMI_cnqxcifyAIVyZeACh2XBAGv][/url]
   2.
   the existence of an individual human being or animal.
   

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life

life
noun \ˈlīf\
: the ability to grow, change, etc., that separates plants and animals from things like water or rocks
: the period of time when a person is alive
: the experience of being alive

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/life

life
 noun\ˈlīf\

plural lives \ˈlīvz\ 
Medical Definition of LIFE
a :  the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional plant or animal from a dead body
b :  a state of living characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

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So basically - your definitions of life don't distinguish between a human child and a plant, or a cancer cell. Nice...

*Skips merrily into thread*

*Skims the last few pages*

*Skips away sadly*

(September 30, 2015 at 4:22 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(September 30, 2015 at 4:20 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: One thing I can say is that I would never judge anyone that had an abortion for any reason whatsoever.  

Well that's a refreshing thing to hear.  Which means I gotta ask.  If you aren't going to judge anyone for having an abortion, should the courts?  Simply, should abortions be illegal?

Ugh a tough question.  One that no matter how the courts fall on it, will undoubtedly upset people.  Honestly I find myself swaying on this quite often.  I don't think they should be illegal, but there should be limitations but this also doesn't mean I support them.  I think much more work needs to be done on contraceptive education to make accidental pregnancies much less common and that contraceptives need to be much more available.  

I need to be realistic.  By making them illegal, they will be obtained by back alley means or there will be even more children born in to bad situations.  But on the flip side, what do you in the case of a very successful couple who make a very good living and have one child already and just decide they don't want any more.  Are they equally justified in getting an abortion?  I don't know.  This is why this is such a tough topic

(September 30, 2015 at 4:21 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: With all due respect, I think you're misstating Kingpin's position. He's actually asking very good, relevant questions.

Some of them - sure. The one I was addressing, about a new-born child being as dependent on the mother's body, as a few-weeks-old fetus - not really. I don't think we're discussing "abortions" of healthy, fully developed babies just before birth.

(September 30, 2015 at 4:19 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(September 30, 2015 at 3:51 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: [...]
Can you explain why killing a baby in utero is ok based solely on the decision of the mother (as you said you have no say), but killing a baby a minute after its born is murder?  Is it a different baby?  Is it any less dependent on the mother than when in utero?  
[...]

Of course the child is way less dependent on the mother after the birth. Are you even serious? That's why when a mother dies during or shortly after child-birth, a child can survive, whereas if she dies a few months before - it can't, unless perhaps some doctors decide to "play god" in order to artificially keep the fetus alive. An option, that - as you probably know - was not available until very recently and has very small chances of success even with everything modern medicine has to offer.

Also - nobody's advocating 3rd trimester abortions. The way you're presenting the issue is simplistic and basically - an attempt at appeal to emotions. Which is understandable, since you don't seem to have any actual arguments at your disposal.

I understand that no one is advocating 3rd trimester abortions.  I'm not trying to appeal to emotion.  Where I have difficulty in understanding is why a first trimester abortion is ok for any reason, but a third trimester abortion is not.  Two weeks before a baby is born, is it ok to abort?  We are still talking about bodily autonomy of the mother and the baby is solely dependent on that mother's resources (same as in first trimester).  PT brought up brain waves and ability to think and reason.  So is the point of life when there is brain activity?  

My other point was that fetus/embryo/baby is also a part of someone else (aside from the mother).  So is the man not a father (and thus having parental rights) until that child is born and cord is cut?  Or is it when the baby has a reasonable viability outside of the womb?  

Amillia Taylor is the world's youngest premature baby ever to survive, and was born at just 21 weeks and six days into her gestation, which was two weeks before the legal abortion cut off at the time in the US.

1. Evolution is fact.

2. The big bang theory it's the best explanation we have.

Between those 2 things that's where the christian "faith" falls apart.
"faith" by definition and in practice is useless.

(September 30, 2015 at 4:51 pm)dyresand Wrote: 1. Evolution is fact.

2. The big bang theory it's the best explanation we have.

Between those 2 things that's where the christian "faith"  falls apart.
"faith" by definition and in practice is useless.

(September 30, 2015 at 5:08 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:

(September 30, 2015 at 4:51 pm)dyresand Wrote: 1. Evolution is fact.

2. The big bang theory it's the best explanation we have.

Between those 2 things that's where the christian "faith"  falls apart.
"faith" by definition and in practice is useless.

Admittedly his post was the best derail I've ever seen.  Wondering if accidental or not.