Go read up on third wave feminism, intersectionality, womanism,things by Alice Walker, Robin Ochs, and Gerdy Willis. Visit blackgirldangerous.org and everydayfeminism.com

http://youtu.be/OKDtncY0Rwk

(November 30, 2015 at 3:59 pm)DespondentFishdeathMasochismo Wrote: I've followed people like shoeonhead, sargon of akkad, and the amazing atheist, who for years filled my head with ideas that feminism was trash

That's the danger of appeals to authority, no-one is a source of absolute truth. Because you question them when presented with new information means you're obviously capable of coming to your own conclusion

I'm pretty sure shoeonhead is a feminist, however she still speaks out against the ridiculousness of extremes even coming from her own side.

(November 30, 2015 at 3:59 pm)DespondentFishdeathMasochismo Wrote: What's stopping me you might ask? Well for one, I'm not really sure what the definition of feminism is. All I know is that the feminists I've talked to agree on some things. Very pro race, pro multiculturalism, pro gay, pro trans, looking at gender as a spectrum and not binary, all very good liberal ideas that I also align with. I have started to question my stance on modern day feminism, which there seems to be a lot of misperceptions about. On one hand modern day feminists don't seem to know that there's a counter movement, which looks at the radicals of feminism today and doesn't back it up by saying that there's rational feminists too.

I've followed people like shoeonhead, sargon of akkad, and the amazing atheist, who for years filled my head with ideas that feminism was trash; these are people who I thought I could trust. I'm starting to question these points of view, because I think I would rather stand in solidarity with rational feminists, instead of against a movement that seems to have a lot of ideas that I could align myself with too. I find it difficult to just straight up get behind any movement, because it's multi faceted in it's views and I am too. I'm having a difficult time deciding who's side that i'm on. I was surprised that the feminists in the "why are there so many atheist anti feminists thread" weren't on my side when I was arguing with them.

Feminism isn't a club or a namebrand.  If you look at the word, it's basically a "doctrine of female," and that can mean whatever you want.  But the problem is that to very many people, "feminist" means "extremist lesbian man-hating bitch."

I would go ahead and identify with that term exactly for that reason.  You will have to tell people over and over what feminism means to you, and perhaps some will say, "Yeah, that's right.  That's what I think it should mean, too."  Don't let man-hating bitches, who really aren't representative of most females anyway, bully their way into ownership of the term.

That being said, I'm a middle-aged white man, and a business-owner to boot, so fuck me, I don't get to be involved in these kind of discussions anyway.

Why can't we all just be Equalists? 

The Revolution has Begun

(November 30, 2015 at 4:41 pm)Thena323 Wrote: You seem to have come to a realization: That most movements have their fringe elements, but it doesn't negate the fact that the movement itself may uphold a very noble or worthy cause.

Hitler made it all look so bad.

(December 6, 2015 at 9:08 am)Sappho Wrote:

(November 30, 2015 at 4:41 pm)Thena323 Wrote: You seem to have come to a realization: That most movements have their fringe elements, but it doesn't negate the fact that the movement itself may uphold a very noble or worthy cause.

Hitler made it all look so bad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

(November 30, 2015 at 10:41 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(November 30, 2015 at 3:59 pm)DespondentFishdeathMasochismo Wrote: What's stopping me you might ask? Well for one, I'm not really sure what the definition of feminism is. All I know is that the feminists I've talked to agree on some things. Very pro race, pro multiculturalism, pro gay, pro trans, looking at gender as a spectrum and not binary, all very good liberal ideas that I also align with. I have started to question my stance on modern day feminism, which there seems to be a lot of misperceptions about. On one hand modern day feminists don't seem to know that there's a counter movement, which looks at the radicals of feminism today and doesn't back it up by saying that there's rational feminists too.

I've followed people like shoeonhead, sargon of akkad, and the amazing atheist, who for years filled my head with ideas that feminism was trash; these are people who I thought I could trust. I'm starting to question these points of view, because I think I would rather stand in solidarity with rational feminists, instead of against a movement that seems to have a lot of ideas that I could align myself with too. I find it difficult to just straight up get behind any movement, because it's multi faceted in it's views and I am too. I'm having a difficult time deciding who's side that i'm on. I was surprised that the feminists in the "why are there so many atheist anti feminists thread" weren't on my side when I was arguing with them.

Feminism isn't a club or a namebrand.  If you look at the word, it's basically a "doctrine of female," and that can mean whatever you want.  But the problem is that to very many people, "feminist" means "extremist lesbian man-hating bitch."

I would go ahead and identify with that term exactly for that reason.  You will have to tell people over and over what feminism means to you, and perhaps some will say, "Yeah, that's right.  That's what I think it should mean, too."  Don't let man-hating bitches, who really aren't representative of most females anyway, bully their way into ownership of the term.

That being said, I'm a middle-aged white man, and a business-owner to boot, so fuck me, I don't get to be involved in these kind of discussions anyway.

That's actually not at all why some people, including myself have disagreed with feminism. I don't see feminists as extreme lesbian man hating bitches. The rhetoric that I see coming from people defend feminism is dismally misguided and often times (as I've seen on this forum), extremely guarded and vindictive to anyone who speaks out against feminism. Hell, feminists see people who challenge feminism as "crusading against women". It's bullshit, it's the most childish dispute I've ever seen coming from people who I'd otherwise consider rational people. You know who else isn't rational? People like Zoe Quin, Anita Sarkeesian, Lacy Green, people who are actually on the fucking forefront of modern day feminism. And I hate that "oh, those aren't the real feminists, they're just the ones who get the most attention." Well if everyone doesn't agree with them, then who's fucking buying the crap they spew, who's fucking promoting them? 

What should be happening here, is feminists should be saying "yes I absolutely agree with you on this issue" instead they spew this rhetoric which makes us out to be the biggest assholes on the planet. I have been fucking taunted, bullied, fucking blatantly shat on by members of this forum. I've given my own generous share of choice words, sure. But you know what I have to say about the practically dozen people who have just tried to harass me off this forum for it? Fuck off.

(November 30, 2015 at 5:17 pm)Tiberius Wrote: The word "feminism" has been tainted by the extremists in the movement, so I no longer feel comfortable calling myself one in case someone misconstrues my meaning. I prefer the term "egalitarian", which basically means someone who believes all people are equal and deserve equal rights, regardless of any differences.

This is pretty much exactly where I am. From the outside, "feminism" looks a lot like a religion. It's splintered into hundreds of schisms (at least), and many of those schisms are ear-marked by vague outrage, rampant sensationalism, faulty claims, crap logic, and an avid desire to censor/punish anyone with an opposing viewpoint while insisting their own views are sacred and unassailable.


I've also noticed this weird dichotomy where they want women to have the agency and freedom to dress and act in absolutely any way they please (sure, fine, it's 2015, they pretty much have that already), but the moment any man expresses enjoyment or encouragement toward virtually any aspect of a woman's appearance (especially her body or mode of dress), they immediately flip the switch to Puritan mode, calling it "exploitation" and wanting to hide women's bodies away from all these nasty men who keep eye-raping them.


Now, I'm not talking about cat-calling here. Cat-calling is disgusting and men who do it should feel ashamed of themselves. I'm talking about situations like porn and modeling, where adult, responsible women decide to put their bodies on display of their own free will and somebody jumps in with "that woman is being exploited and would only allow it if she had no other choice and/or has been brainwashed by the Patriarchy."


I realize not all feminists are like that, but the most vocal ones often are, which is another problem they have in common with religion. The average feminist probably isn't any more radical or hateful than the average Christian, but the average feminist/Christian is not as vocal as the extreme ones, so they don't contribute as much to the public image of the group.


When it comes to matters of human equality, I usually refer to myself as an egalitarian and/or a secular humanist. I think all humans should have the same rights regardless of who they are, pretty much. The only exceptions would be really harmful/crazy people who don't give society any option but to remove some of their freedoms to keep everyone else safe. The word "feminism," however, has become too synonymous with too many negatives, and it doesn't seem to me that this is entirely without reason.