No doubt this has been said already, but I didn't bother to read all of the responses.

I simply point out all of the flaws in nature, particularly biological human flaws (if you point out psychological flaws, they'll almost always counter with "the devil did it"). However, they'll also blame the devil for biological flaws, just less often in my experience.

Cancer
Viruses
The numerous inherent issues with being bipedal
Why isn't our (humans) sight better than birds? (We're supposed to be the best on the planet, right)
Why isn't our sense of smell and hearing better than dogs?
Why are we sometimes born with defects, mutations, and abnormalities?
Why weren't we "created" with the ability to detect this so called god? (This is also useful for the argument theists make when they say there's no evidence for god because he exists outside our dimension or realm)

The list can go on and on. Nature is not infallible. Quite the contrary. There are flaws everywhere in nature.

(December 26, 2015 at 5:50 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: Somebody might have tried this already, but let's see if this helps:


de·sign
dəˈzīn/Submit


noun
1.
a plan or drawing produced to show the look and function or workings of a building, garment, or other object before it is built or made.
"he has just unveiled his design for the new museum"
synonyms: plan, blueprint, drawing, sketch, outline, map, plot, diagram, draft, representation, scheme, model
"a design for the offices"
2.
purpose, planning, or intention that exists or is thought to exist behind an action, fact, or material object.
"the appearance of design in the universe"
synonyms: intention, aim, purpose, plan, intent, objective, object, goal, end, target; More


verb
1.
decide upon the look and functioning of (a building, garment, or other object), typically by making a detailed drawing of it.
"a number of architectural students were designing a factory"
synonyms: plan, outline, map out, draft, draw More


Every bit of that has to do with planning, purpose, intent, and the direct involvement of sentient beings. If you're saying that the word "design" doesn't necessarily involve a plan or a designer, you're wrong on both counts because that's simply not what the word means.


Also, it doesn't matter if you plan out how you intend to approach the design process. Designing is an act of planning.

Suppose I gave you some clay.
I want you to design a pot.
How would you go about it?

(December 26, 2015 at 11:35 pm)pool Wrote: Suppose I gave you some clay.
I want you to design a pot.
How would you go about it?

Well, having taken ceramics, I might go about it in a few different ways.


On the one hand, I might do some sketches or at least some visualization in advance to decide what I want the pot to look like.


On the other, I might just throw some clay on the wheel and design the pot in physical space as I'm shaping it. Regardless of whether the "designing" part happens while I'm making it or before I start, no amount of semantic word-pandering changes the definition of the word "design." If there is no designer, there is no design. Period.

(December 27, 2015 at 12:16 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(December 26, 2015 at 11:35 pm)pool Wrote: Suppose I gave you some clay.
I want you to design a pot.
How would you go about it?

Well, having taken ceramics, I might go about it in a few different ways.


On the one hand, I might do some sketches or at least some visualization in advance to decide what I want the pot to look like.


On the other, I might just throw some clay on the wheel and design the pot in physical space as I'm shaping it. Regardless of whether the "designing" part happens while I'm making it or before I start, no amount of semantic word-pandering changes the definition of the word "design." If there is no designer, there is no design. Period.

*scratches head*
This is what you would do:
You'd apply constraints to this clay in such a way as it matches the constraints of an average pot.

Designing is applying constraints or enforcing rules into a system. I don't care what the dictionary say, hell I can prove there is a God just with what the dictionary says, and I have done it before but I was told that it was not advisable to quote from a dictionary and tell people what they believe in.

Nobody cares that you don't care about the dictionary.  The word design means something, and if you think it means something it doesn't mean, you're wrong. You can bandy semantics all day long, but it still doesn't change what the word "design" means.

(December 27, 2015 at 12:40 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: Nobody cares that you don't care about the dictionary.  The word design means something, and if you think it means something it doesn't mean, you're wrong. You can bandy semantics all day long, but it still doesn't change what the word "design" means.

But if my definition is right, why wouldn't you agree with me? Is it because I lack the credentials? meh
I'm not defining it wrongly, or to fit into my argument, I'm defining it for what it is.

No, you're not. You're making up an incorrect definition that suits your purposes, and if you claim you're doing otherwise, you're a either a liar or you're painfully ignorant.

(December 27, 2015 at 12:45 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: No, you're not. You're making up an incorrect definition that suits your purposes, and if you claim you're doing otherwise, you're a either a liar or you're painfully ignorant.

I presented my case for why my definition is right with providing examples.
If you have a case to disprove my definition, they by all means present it.

(December 27, 2015 at 12:47 am)pool Wrote:

(December 27, 2015 at 12:45 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: No, you're not. You're making up an incorrect definition that suits your purposes, and if you claim you're doing otherwise, you're a either a liar or you're painfully ignorant.

I presented my case for why my definition is right with providing examples.
If you have a case to disprove my definition, they by all means present it.

I already did. It's called "the definition of the damn word."

(December 27, 2015 at 12:58 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(December 27, 2015 at 12:47 am)pool Wrote: I presented my case for why my definition is right with providing examples.
If you have a case to disprove my definition, they by all means present it.

I already did. It's called "the definition of the damn word."

I emerge victorious.