(January 10, 2016 at 1:35 pm)Mermaid Wrote:

(January 10, 2016 at 1:34 pm)Aegon Wrote: Taking that line out of context to portray me as a misogynistic asshole. Alright then.

Out of context? Was it? You said in black and white that showering with someone is the definition of "asking for it". Am I wrong? I have no intention of framing anyone in an incorrect light.

I said,

"She's right, but also incredibly dumb. Yes, if she didn't want to have sex with him and she says that and he still does it, that's rape and that's awful. But kissing a drunk guy while you're both naked in the shower? That's sort of the definition of "asking for it." I am not excusing the rapist's actions with that phrase. It's still rape and it's still horrible. But if I walked through the South Bronx with a sign on that says "I HATE N_____S AND SPICS" and I got stabbed to death, I'd say I was "asking for it." Doesn't mean the murder was justified. But what did I expect when I put myself in such a situation?"

Rape is never okay, that much should be obvious. The "rape culture" puts the blame almost solely on the woman in many cases, as if drunk men shouldn't be expected to control their urges. I'm not perpetuating that. I'm saying that there are certainly situations that a woman could put herself in that would make rape much more likely. Some people would say an example of that is wearing a skimpy outfit to the bar. I am not saying that. But getting in the shower naked with a drunk guy she didn't know well? It's just an awful decision. If this is the ninth time she's been sexually assaulted, one would think she'd take particular precautions and would never make this sort of decision. Again, it's like walking into a poor, predominantly minority neighborhood wearing a sign that says "I HATE _____" It's dumb as hell and can't lead anywhere good. If I got murered for it, that doesn't make the murder okay. The murderer's attorney can't use "He was asking for it" as a defense. But should some of the blame go on me?

(January 10, 2016 at 1:41 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Now I know what he did was wrong, but what she did was also wrong.

If you don't want to have sex, don't get naked and start kissing someone. especially someone who is drunk.

Now if a woman just happens to be walking down the street in a revealing outfit, and she gets jumped and raped, I put full blame on the rapists. But there's a difference between a poor innocent victim going about their day, and getting raped, and someone who decided she wants to get naked and kiss a drunk guy, and expecting him to know when to stop.

getting run over by a car is a horrible thing, but if you were playing in the street when it happened it's a little bit your fault. Context is important.

In this particular context, I agree with all of this.

I don't always understand this black-and-white "you're with me or against me" mentality of online social activism. You have to only blame the perceived aggressor, or you are dismissing the wrongs they did and defending the crime. Sometimes both parties are at fault.

The guy in this situation is a rapist and needs to do some time for it. I find it's pretty bad how often I have to say this to adults, but if you know that alcohol makes you do stupid shit, then "you + binge drinking" shouldn't happen. It took me one bad night, that cost me hundreds to pay for the damage I did to someone else's property, for me to learn that. Guess what I've never been that drunk again since. Learn, people.

She, however, is also partly to blame, for exactly the same reasons. Putting yourself in danger is also "stupid shit" you do while you are drunk. If she really has been raped all those times and she still hasn't learned this, then she needs rehab, not defending or validation.

Being drunk is not a legitimate excuse for doing stupid things. If you do things you know you'll regret while under influence, don't fucking drink so much, and that's all she wrote.

(January 10, 2016 at 1:43 pm)Aegon Wrote:

(January 10, 2016 at 1:35 pm)Mermaid Wrote: Out of context? Was it? You said in black and white that showering with someone is the definition of "asking for it". Am I wrong? I have no intention of framing anyone in an incorrect light.

I said,

"She's right, but also incredibly dumb. Yes, if she didn't want to have sex with him and she says that and he still does it, that's rape and that's awful. But kissing a drunk guy while you're both naked in the shower? That's sort of the definition of "asking for it." I am not excusing the rapist's actions with that phrase. It's still rape and it's still horrible. But if I walked through the South Bronx with a sign on that says "I HATE N_____S AND SPICS" and I got stabbed to death, I'd say I was "asking for it." Doesn't mean the murder was justified. But what did I expect when I put myself in such a situation?"

Rape is never okay, that much should be obvious. The "rape culture" puts the blame almost solely on the woman in many cases, as if drunk men shouldn't be expected to control their urges. I'm not perpetuating that. I'm saying that there are certainly situations that a woman could put herself in that would make rape much more likely. Some people would say an example of that is wearing a skimpy outfit to the bar. I am not saying that. But getting in the shower naked with a drunk guy she didn't know well? It's just an awful decision. If this is the ninth time she's been sexually assaulted, one would think she'd take particular precautions and would never make this sort of decision. Again, it's like walking into a poor, predominantly minority neighborhood wearing a sign that says "I HATE _____" It's dumb as hell and can't lead anywhere good. If I got murered for it, that doesn't make the murder okay. The murderer's attorney can't use "He was asking for it" as a defense. But should some of the blame go on me?

This.

Rape is always, always the fault of the rapist.  Period.  Full stop.

However, she and a lot of people need to be a hell of a lot smarter about recognizing and mitigating risk.  Getting into a shower with a drunk stranger and kissing them is an incredibly risky string of behavior.  And while it doesn't justify her rape, nor make it inevitable, it most certainly increases the likelihood of it happening.

Ultimately, if you bumble through life thinking everyone else shares your values and/or ability to restrain themselves from doing heinous things, eventually you're going to get hurt.  Situational awareness is a vital survival skill.

I'm neutral. Lived with a woman like this in St. Thomas (platonic). Always ETOH involved. Never her fault. Always needed rescue. Same situation within a month or two. Not always ending in rape.

(January 10, 2016 at 1:59 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(January 10, 2016 at 1:43 pm)Aegon Wrote: I said,

"She's right, but also incredibly dumb. Yes, if she didn't want to have sex with him and she says that and he still does it, that's rape and that's awful. But kissing a drunk guy while you're both naked in the shower? That's sort of the definition of "asking for it." I am not excusing the rapist's actions with that phrase. It's still rape and it's still horrible. But if I walked through the South Bronx with a sign on that says "I HATE N_____S AND SPICS" and I got stabbed to death, I'd say I was "asking for it." Doesn't mean the murder was justified. But what did I expect when I put myself in such a situation?"

Rape is never okay, that much should be obvious. The "rape culture" puts the blame almost solely on the woman in many cases, as if drunk men shouldn't be expected to control their urges. I'm not perpetuating that. I'm saying that there are certainly situations that a woman could put herself in that would make rape much more likely. Some people would say an example of that is wearing a skimpy outfit to the bar. I am not saying that. But getting in the shower naked with a drunk guy she didn't know well? It's just an awful decision. If this is the ninth time she's been sexually assaulted, one would think she'd take particular precautions and would never make this sort of decision. Again, it's like walking into a poor, predominantly minority neighborhood wearing a sign that says "I HATE _____" It's dumb as hell and can't lead anywhere good. If I got murered for it, that doesn't make the murder okay. The murderer's attorney can't use "He was asking for it" as a defense. But should some of the blame go on me?

This.

Rape is always, always the fault of the rapist.  Period.  Full stop.

However, she and a lot of people need to be a hell of a lot smarter about recognizing and mitigating risk.  Getting into a shower with a drunk stranger and kissing them is an incredibly risky string of behavior.  And while it doesn't justify her rape, nor make it inevitable, it most certainly increases the likelihood of it happening.

Ultimately, if you bumble through life thinking everyone else shares your values and/or ability to restrain themselves from doing heinous things, eventually you're going to get hurt.  Situational awareness is a vital survival skill.

People, including the police department, said these VERY same things to me. I should be more careful and was partially to blame for walking alone at night. Was I?

(January 10, 2016 at 1:27 pm)Aegon Wrote: She's right, but also incredibly dumb. Yes, if she didn't want to have sex with him and she says that and he still does it, that's rape and that's awful. But kissing a drunk guy while you're both naked in the shower? That's sort of the definition of "asking for it."

There's by definition no such thing as "asking for" rape.

If you can ask for it, it's not rape.

If it's rape, you didn't and couldn't have asked for it.

Rape is rape. And kissing someone in a shower is not consenting to sex.

(January 10, 2016 at 1:59 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: However, she and a lot of people need to be a hell of a lot smarter about recognizing and mitigating risk.  Getting into a shower with a drunk stranger and kissing them is an incredibly risky string of behavior.  And while it doesn't justify her rape, nor make it inevitable, it most certainly increases the likelihood of it happening.

This is true but when someone has been raped, the fact that someone engaged in a risky behavior is not the major issue, the major issue is that someone has been raped and the rapist needs to be locked away because they're dangerous.

Non-mod: oh boy, another rape thread.

(January 10, 2016 at 2:04 pm)Mermaid Wrote:

(January 10, 2016 at 1:59 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: This.

Rape is always, always the fault of the rapist.  Period.  Full stop.

However, she and a lot of people need to be a hell of a lot smarter about recognizing and mitigating risk.  Getting into a shower with a drunk stranger and kissing them is an incredibly risky string of behavior.  And while it doesn't justify her rape, nor make it inevitable, it most certainly increases the likelihood of it happening.

Ultimately, if you bumble through life thinking everyone else shares your values and/or ability to restrain themselves from doing heinous things, eventually you're going to get hurt.  Situational awareness is a vital survival skill.

People, including the police department, said these VERY same things to me. I should be more careful and was partially to blame for walking alone at night. Was I?

I don't know.

How late was it?
Do you live on a dark street?
Are there ample places for an assailant to hide?
Is it in a neighborhood that has a relatively high crime rate?

Keep in mind, like I and everyone else has said in this thread: RAPE IS THE FAULT OF THE RAPIST

What we're trying to say is that people assume a certain amount of risk with whatever they do - driving on the highway, going to parties, and, yes, walking alone at night.  The point is to not exacerbate that risk by being an idiot.  Jumping in a shower with a drunk stranger and kissing them is stupidly risky.  

Walking alone at night?  Far less risky, although, it definitely depends on the circumstance.  For example, my old college campus was notorious for nighttime rapes and the faculty and campus police urged everyone walking at night to do so at least in pairs, if not greater numbers, to mitigate risk.

Your attempts to paint me and Aegon as some kind of misogynistic assholes misses the mark.  Shit, my cousin/god mother was molested for at least 8 years of her childhood by my own fucking father, and she kept it quiet because she knew that the family needed his income because of my ample medical bills.  While I've never been the victim of rape itself, my mere fucking existence forced someone I love dearly to have to go through pain and humiliation and fear I cannot imagine.  If you don't think I'm sympathetic to rape victims because I think everyone - male, female, non-cisgendered, old, young, black, white, whatever - should be a bit smarter across the board in order to mitigate the risk (not just the risk of getting raped, but all risk) they inevitably face in life rather than bumbling around and increasing risk in an idiotic fashion, I don't know what to tell you.