(January 12, 2016 at 1:30 pm)Losty Wrote:

(January 12, 2016 at 1:27 pm)TheRealJoeFish Wrote: This bolded is a very important point.

Legally, if two drunk people have sex with each other, they are, under some interpretations of the law, raping each other.  It is an enormous grey area, and I think it's relatively impossible to state an appropriate legal standard.

It's not the same if both people are drunk. I was under the impression that she was sober. If she was also drunk, that makes the whole thing too confusing to form an opinion on and I hope I won't be asked to serve on that jury.

This is indeed a grey area.  Alcohol confuses the clarity of what happened.

I addressed this in my post, #284,
but I'll repost my own comments here:

Quote: If a woman is too drunk to object to sex,
and a man has sex with her, anyways,
(regardless of whether he, himself, is sober, or drunk as well)
...that is rape.

However,

If I, as a woman, get drunk,
and initiate and consent to have sex with a man,

I'm NOT going to turn around and cry "Rape" the next day,
...If I can recall consenting to sex...
just because I regret my own stupid, drunken choices.

I will blame myself for getting drunk
and then making bad decisions as a result.[b]

I must be accountable for MY choices, too.
[/b]

so, to reiterate:

Even if he is drunk, too,
if i did not consent,
he is still guilty of rape...his being drunk does not excuse him.

And even if he is sober,
if I consented to sex (while I was drunk),
that does not make him a rapist,
even if I regret it the next day...

...It might make him a jerk who took advantage,
instead of an honourable gentleman,
but not a rapist.


What it would make me is an adult woman who decided to get drunk,
and then made poor decisions she must live with.

The grey area, and the problem with sex while drunk,
is this:

What if I actually DID consent,
but cannot recall consenting?

This is why I said:

It is not only DISHONORABLE for a man to take advantage of a drunken woman who has consented to sex,
but it is also STUPID:

He may be setting himself up to be accused of rape,
because he risks that she may not recall consenting.

The fact that she was drunk, and he was sober, will look bad against him.

(January 12, 2016 at 2:06 pm)MTL Wrote:

(January 12, 2016 at 1:30 pm)Losty Wrote: It's not the same if both people are drunk. I was under the impression that she was sober. If she was also drunk, that makes the whole thing too confusing to form an opinion on and I hope I won't be asked to serve on that jury.

This is indeed a grey area.  Alcohol confuses the clarity of what happened.

I addressed this in my post, #284,
but I'll repost my own comments here:

Quote: If a woman is too drunk to object to sex,
and a man has sex with her, anyways,
(regardless of whether he, himself, is sober, or drunk as well)
...that is rape.

However,

If I, as a woman, get drunk,
and initiate and consent to have sex with a man,

I'm NOT going to turn around and cry "Rape" the next day,
...If I can recall consenting to sex...
just because I regret my own stupid, drunken choices.

I will blame myself for getting drunk
and then making bad decisions as a result.[b]

I must be accountable for MY choices, too.
[/b]

so, to reiterate:

Even if he is drunk, too,
if i did not consent,
he is still guilty of rape...his being drunk does not excuse him.

And even if he is sober,
if I consented to sex (while I was drunk),
that does not make him a rapist,
even if I regret it the next day...

...It might make him a jerk who took advantage,
instead of an honourable gentleman,
but not a rapist.


What it would make me is an adult woman who decided to get drunk,
and then made poor decisions she must live with.

The grey area, and the problem with sex while drunk,
is this:

What if I actually DID consent,
but cannot recall consenting?

This is why I said:

It is not only DISHONORABLE for a man to take advantage of a drunken woman who has consented to sex,
but it is also STUPID:

He may be setting himself up to be accused of rape,
because he risks that she may not recall consenting.

The fact that she was drunk, and he was sober, will look bad against him.

Yea except as far as I can tell she wasn't drunk at all. I'm disliking your gender qualifiers. It's dishonorable and disgusting for a person to take advantage of someone who is drunk. Not only if they're a man.

I clearly established several times that his being drunk was no excuse in this circumstance. I clearly stated that if the story is true then what he did was rape and it was wrong and he is the only one to blame for his actions.

On a side not. Completely separate from the rape, that she soberly got into a shower with someone she believed to be drunk was morally wrong IMO.

I don't agree that it makes her accountable for the rape in any way shape or form. But it was wrong of her to do that nonetheless.



ETA- we could be talking around each other and agreeing. I'm not sure anymore. Too much rape talk for one day so ima have to bounce from this thread. Sorry.

According to her story, she didn't get in the shower with him. He offered her a hot shower as she had no hot water in her hostel, and she took his offer. According to the story, she hadn't even taken her clothes off yet.

pool, you're a good guy, but just keep your fingers off this topic. It needs to be handled with a bit more care, no material for LOLz it's not.

(January 12, 2016 at 2:18 pm)Losty Wrote: Yea except as far as I can tell she wasn't drunk at all.

I clearly established several times that his being drunk was no excuse in this circumstance. I clearly stated that if the story is true then what he did was rape and it was wrong and he is the only one to blame for his actions.

On a side not. Completely separate from the rape, that she soberly got into a shower with someone she believed to be drunk was morally wrong IMO.

I don't agree that it makes her accountable for the rape in any way shape or form. But it was wrong of her to do that nonetheless.

Oh, this is my fault...I should clarify I am speaking in generalities...I have avoided speaking directly to this particular case too much, since we don't ultimately know what occurred, for certain.
I should have stated that.  Apologies.

Quote:I'm disliking your gender qualifiers. It's dishonorable and disgusting for a person to take advantage of someone who is drunk. Not only if they're a man.

I will be the first to agree with this.

I was going to incorporate that into my post,
but speaking gender-neutral about two parties muddled the clarity of what  I was trying to say.

Of course it goes both ways, zero argument from me.

@MTL: offtopic: umm, why are you typing your sentences in columns? just curious....


@Losty: Yes I know the story sounds sketchy but I believe her justification for the instagram is because she believed that there'd be little to no dna evidence left due to the whole thing occurring in shower and the law enforcement over there wouldn't be much help. So she wanted to get everything on record and out there while she still could and probably felt would be the only way to get some support.

Also yes I do believe she is accountable, but not in context of the rape. She is a rape activist and as such has both responsibility and accountability towards those people who are likely to learn from her actions.

(January 12, 2016 at 12:21 pm)pool Wrote:

(January 12, 2016 at 12:19 pm)Dystopia Wrote: It's likely different people find different ways to confront the fact they've been raped. Maybe, for some reason, it makes her feel better and less guilty.

Have you ever been raped? How many people you know personally have been raped?

I won't speak for Dyst, for obvious reasons, but personally I've known and comforted two people who were raped; one of them on two separate occasions. After one such, the person in question was so traumatised for a long time afterwards, she asked me to do something I will not share here to displace her feelings of the experience. All I will say is I couldn't go through with it.

I shall not be shamed out of my own thread
I shall post with fury :| and strength oh look a butterfly

(January 12, 2016 at 4:14 pm)pool the great Wrote: I shall not be shamed out of my own thread
I shall post with fury :| and strength oh look a butterfly

Rather than being shamed out of your own thread, or posting with fury. Why don't you take a moment to consider what other people have said here. Ask yourself if you could be wrong. Ask yourself if the way you present your opinion could be off putting and/or the reason for overly negative responses. Ask yourself do you really want to be that guy who posts threads mocking rape victims and treats the situation as if it were a big joke.

meanwhile, watch a cat video