In the 1700's, it was common knowledge that white people were superior to other races, it was the status quo, a matter of fact as far as they were concerned. Was that God's opinion? Did God determine that a human's value was measured by their race and that whites were the best?

(January 13, 2016 at 3:02 pm)wallym Wrote:

(January 13, 2016 at 1:56 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I think I understand what you mean; that the value of anything is alway subjective, it's just that some units of measurement are more precise than others?  But if three people all measure the moon with the same tool, the same way, in the same units, at the same time, they would all get the same objective, numeric value.  On the other hand, I could say - I love the moon, it is so majestic, I can't wait for it to rise every night.  I can't fall asleep until I see it in the sky.  And you could say - eh, I don't really care much about the moon, I never even notice it's there.   That's subjective, as in we assign a different degree of value to it.  

The trick, I think, is that you view your love of the moon as measuring the moon.  But really, you're measuring your own brain.  Whereas, I'd be measuring my brain.  That's why both of our statements can be fact.  According to your brain functions, you do love the moon.  According to mine, I ignore the moon.  

A good example might be distance from the moon.  You measure your distance from the moon, and it's 238,000 miles.  I measure my distance from the moon, and it's 239,000 miles.  And like 'value' the scope exists only for me in that moment.  As the next moment I fall down a mountain, and now I'm 238,899 miles from the moon.

It's really not that important. But I think by only dealing with things as facts, rather than objective/subjective/objectively subjective, etc... it might make the conversation less convoluted.

Holy shit! You fell 101 miles down a mountain; are you OKAY?! Just kidding...I understand what you mean, and I agree it would streamline things. [emoji41]

(January 13, 2016 at 5:58 am)Red_Wind Wrote: What's the point of this thread?

Value is a human/social construct and is not universal.

Mystic is a master in the art of verbal diarrhetics

(January 13, 2016 at 6:48 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(January 13, 2016 at 6:44 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: I'm not looking for any certifiably ultimate value.  I'm pretty comfortable going with what suits me regardless of whether my choice represents the most popular, super duper best one ever.  I don't approach anything else in my life like that, why would I look for it with god-strings attached?

Because you acknowledge the strings whether you intellectually or outwardly realize it or not, you inside act according to this belief, as I showed in the OP.

I'll have to take your word for it as it was too long to read given the lack of promise in its thesis.  Of course what you mean is that you, MK, a mortal no more or less than myself theorize that such is the way of it for everyone.  If you managed to convince yourself you might want to remember that you started of believing it anyway even without your argument.  Personally, I reject it without consideration the same way you reject my testimony of what I value.

(January 13, 2016 at 7:53 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Our brains assign value to the acts because they believe that state of the person has value objectively. Whether there exists such a thing is different to say that we assign value due to belief in the objective value.

So, this is where using objective/subjective becomes confusing.

It is a fact that some acts are interpreted in a positive manner by the brain.  We label this as value.  But that is the relationship between our brain and that act..

If I'm trying to start a fire, I may value a pile of sticks over a big rock.  That's a factual description of the relationship between my brain and those items at that time.    

But if you put a pile of sticks and a rock in a vaccuum, and say which is more valuable, there is no way to compare them.  They are both just things devoid of value without some relationship to give them context.

The point being, that the value of a stick or a rock is not inherent.  The value is a description of relationships between things.

The use it has towards you at that moment is not totally arbitrary. And without belief that you have an objective value, you cannot value those things to you. Any self love or self value you have, shows you believe you do have value. You may not love yourself as you are meant to or may love yourself in a way your not suppose to, but you know very well you have an objective value.

Eating for example your favorite food. You make go out of your way because the food let's say is not so simple. You do that because you believe there is value to who you are.

Of course to say there is objective value is not to say there isn't subjective value and that somethings are not purely subjective. However human value is both subjective and objective. Our subjective value is related with our belief in objective value. Also a lot of the subjective value is related to objective to objective value interaction. For example, a Mom and her son,  there is a special relationship that is subjective but it should be more special and different then just a stranger to a stranger relationship, and that it is due to the nature of value.

The same is true of our relationship with God. If we try to get close to God, constantly call upon him...then the relationship between God and that person, is not the same as a person who ignores God and neglects him.

And those who never disobeyed him or showed utmost sincerity and effort to please him, have a special relationship with God that we never can attain.

Also while I believe some people lack emotions in love and compassion, they can through reason value and love in a different way. Not everything has to be driven by emotion.

Some people lacking empathy, can reason their way, that humans ought to be valued.

What if I really enjoy maiming and butchering the innocent? Does God take credit for the value I place in committing atrocities against innocent people?

(January 14, 2016 at 12:47 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: What if I really enjoy maiming and butchering the innocent? Does God take credit for the value I place in committing atrocities against innocent people?

I think there is an unclean way to value oneself and noble way. However, you doing so would be in rebellion to God's name entrusted in you. God's Name pushes you one direction but through his power you might rebel against the light and the balance. At the end, all good and evil is from God because he is the author of the system we are in, but from another perspective, evil is more worthy to be attributed to ourselves, while our good is more worthy to be attributed to God.

(January 14, 2016 at 12:53 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(January 14, 2016 at 12:47 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: What if I really enjoy maiming and butchering the innocent? Does God take credit for the value I place in committing atrocities against innocent people?

I think there is an unclean way to value oneself and noble way. However, you doing so would be in rebellion to God's name entrusted in you. God's Name pushes you one direction but through his power you might rebel against the light and the balance. At the end, all good and evil is from God because he is the author of the system we are in, but from another perspective, evil is more worthy to be attributed to ourselves, while our good is more worthy to be attributed to God.

So God approves of maiming the innocent and is inherently responsible for the value I place in it despite it being contrary to his wishes but not really because even when someone is doing something evil, they're following God's plan, which is perfect and good. Awesome. What a hero. Glad we have this self-negating objective moral standard otherwise I would never know right from wrong.

(January 14, 2016 at 12:44 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The use it has towards you at that moment is not totally arbitrary. And without belief that you have an objective value, you cannot value those things to you. Any self love or self value you have, shows you believe you do have value. You may not love yourself as you are meant to or may love yourself in a way your not suppose to, but you know very well you have an objective value.

Eating for example your favorite food. You make go out of your way because the food let's say is not so simple. You do that because you believe there is value to who you are.

Do you believe dogs believe themselves to have objective value?  As a dog may also travel further to get a desired meal.  Or try to prevent itself from being harmed.  Or form an attachment to another animal/person.

I personally believe I have value to me, in that I want good things to happen to me, because the good biological feedback feels better than the bad biological feedback. That's why I value eating a cake more than chopping off my fingers. The root of value is the feedback, which is a tangible thing I have to experience.