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RE: Franics Collins
January 16, 2016 at 1:52 pm
(This post was last modified: January 16, 2016 at 1:55 pm by Cecelia.)
My depths of understanding do not have to be strong to know that I can safely ignore the bible.
It's a book that says that the creator of the world killed 70,000 people because a King messed up with a census. To call that moral is, in my book, reprehensible. It's a book that makes outrageous claims that have no backing aside from the book itself. I see no reason to take it seriously enough to give it any more study than I've already given it. One can easily surmise from a single reading that the views of the book reflect the people who wrote it, and not some 'almighty divine creator'
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RE: Franics Collins
January 16, 2016 at 3:32 pm
(January 16, 2016 at 1:33 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (January 14, 2016 at 10:15 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You can be brilliant at "a"...and a complete dunce at "b". Whats the problem Ath? Wanna make the case for stringing up the better man? Be my guest.
But that's not what you said, is it?
You didn't say "his views on ____ are moronic." You very clearly said he sounds like a moron.
Don't back track and then accuse the other person of being out of line for calling you out.
-and now you've joined him in the "sounds like a moron" camp. Put it back in your pants CL, this will end in misery.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Franics Collins
January 16, 2016 at 3:36 pm
(This post was last modified: January 16, 2016 at 3:37 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 16, 2016 at 1:36 pm)athrock Wrote: (January 16, 2016 at 1:07 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I reject vicarious redemption and so cannot be a christian. I'm not the kind of guy who's going to string up the better man for my own misdeeds...even if it's an option. Pretty cut and dry. Have I missed anything, in your estimation?
(good thing you came along to tell people what they believe or fear, missionary, if it weren't for your expert opinion we might never know......lol)
To avoid misunderstanding on my part, please define "vicarious redemption" and why you reject if specifically.
Who knows? I may agree with you. 
Oh, one other minor point. I'm NOT a missionary. I think we should be able to agree on the definition of that word readily enough.
It's the christ portion of christianity. I think you can work it out, and it isn't like you didn't quote me up there. Would you prefer I continued to call you my other term for missionaries?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Franics Collins
January 16, 2016 at 4:23 pm
(This post was last modified: January 16, 2016 at 4:24 pm by athrock.)
(January 16, 2016 at 1:52 pm)Cecelia Wrote: My depths of understanding do not have to be strong to know that I can safely ignore the bible.
It's a book that says that the creator of the world killed 70,000 people because a King messed up with a census. To call that moral is, in my book, reprehensible. It's a book that makes outrageous claims that have no backing aside from the book itself. I see no reason to take it seriously enough to give it any more study than I've already given it. One can easily surmise from a single reading that the views of the book reflect the people who wrote it, and not some 'almighty divine creator'
Unless you are simply wrong. From a single reading? Really?
Do you not recall that God gave David three choices:
- three years of famine
- three months of fleeing his enemies
- three days of plague.
David reasoned that the latter would be the best option because he trust more in the mercy of God than in the mercy of men (his enemies).
Why did this happen? Two possibilities come to mind:
- God was punishing the entire nation for offences that had been building up over time, or
- God sought to teach His people (note that carefully, the Israelites were HIS people) an important lesson concerning strict obedience to His instructions.
It's understandable that you have emotional difficulties with this, but if God's judgment is perfect based upon His omniscience, then His justice is also perfect. Nothing that He did was unfair or unjust.
In this account, the multitude was killed for the sin of one man; later, one man would be killed for the sins of the multitude on a cross.
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RE: Franics Collins
January 16, 2016 at 4:26 pm
(This post was last modified: January 16, 2016 at 4:33 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Cool story?
1. I know how we do it in the US, when a parent is guilty of a capital offense...... we execute the child as well.
2. Yeah, and the lesson is this..do what god wants the way he wants it.... or he'll hurt you.
So what's all this "if" gods judgement is perfect business? There is no "if".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Franics Collins
January 16, 2016 at 4:34 pm
(This post was last modified: January 16, 2016 at 4:41 pm by Cecelia.)
(January 16, 2016 at 4:23 pm)athrock Wrote: Unless you are simply wrong. From a single reading? Really?
Do you not recall that God gave David three choices:
- three years of famine
- three months of fleeing his enemies
- three days of plague.
David reasoned that the latter would be the best option because he trust more in the mercy of God than in the mercy of men (his enemies).
Why did this happen? Two possibilities come to mind:
- God was punishing the entire nation for offences that had been building up over time, or
- God sought to teach His people (note that carefully, the Israelites were HIS people) an important lesson concerning strict obedience to His instructions.
It's understandable that you have emotional difficulties with this, but if God's judgment is perfect based upon His omniscience, then His justice is also perfect. Nothing that He did was unfair or unjust.
In this account, the multitude was killed for the sin of one man; later, one man would be killed for the sins of the multitude on a cross.
So it's perfectly okay according to you that God killed 70,000 people for a census? What makes that justice? The fact that he's god? Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Him being God would not absolve him of anything. If God killed 70,000 people for a census, then I would say you cannot say that his justice is perfect.
Did you read Lord of the Rings several times, and discover that Sauron was actually the good guy all along?
To be perfectly honest if anyone managed to convince me that the Christian God Existed, I'd more likely worship Satan instead. He sounds far more reasonable.
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RE: Franics Collins
January 16, 2016 at 4:36 pm
(This post was last modified: January 16, 2016 at 4:36 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
One would imagine that the bar for perfection is a great deal higher, eh? This nonsense above cheapens the notions of perfection, justice, and god.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Franics Collins
January 16, 2016 at 4:37 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 12:20 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (January 9, 2016 at 12:08 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I think Beccs nailed it. Collins has been quoted:
So he is a fully competent scientific mind who simply chooses to believe in nonsense for reasons of his own. I have no doubt that other "True Xtians" will denounce him for his lack of faith but on the other hand they need all the help they can get. The only problem with guys like Collins is that he gives the morons some cover.
As H. L. Mencken noted:
And, yet, Collins believes, perhaps implicitly, in Adam & Eve:
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com...a-contest/
"Implicitly"? Not sure what you mean. Perhaps he believe in it allegorically?
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RE: Franics Collins
January 16, 2016 at 4:42 pm
(January 16, 2016 at 4:36 pm)Rhythm Wrote: One would imagine that the bar for perfection is a great deal higher, eh? This nonsense above cheapens the notions of perfection, justice, and god.
One would hope so.
Hitler's justice apparently was perfect. The germans were his people after all.
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RE: Franics Collins
January 16, 2016 at 4:54 pm
(January 16, 2016 at 4:37 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: (January 9, 2016 at 12:20 pm)Jehanne Wrote: And, yet, Collins believes, perhaps implicitly, in Adam & Eve:
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com...a-contest/
"Implicitly"? Not sure what you mean. Perhaps he believe in it allegorically?
Who knows? Let him come out, explicitly, and state if he thinks that all human beings descended from a single couple, a man and a woman. He believes in the Virgin Birth, that Jesus was born of Mary's DNA alone.
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