(January 18, 2016 at 10:02 am)Brian37 Wrote: I hope you are not missing my point here. Human excesses and or the good or bad we do to each other do not need old books of myth to understand and or manage better. Those comic book explanations actually serve to act as a blindfold to problem solving.

Even though our human souls are made that way; made to hate certain immoralities -bad things-, the Quran is mainly citing the wrong deeds only; just foretelling.

Ah, I wouldn't say a blindfold, but I would say "regulations". For example, one can't solve their poverty problem by invading their neighbors, or deal with their "honor" issues by having sex with men. Because in Arabic Bedwin societies (and that is where I think Soddom is), women are so hard to reach (due to customs and honor crap), to a degree making fucking men easier. Saudi Arabia is one example.

It's common for the men of these lands, to have their cocks in chesty since women are protected by the stupid customs and tribal barriers (to a degree of getting murdered if you had sex with a girl; not religiously, but because they think it's insulting to the honor of the girl's clan & family), so boys go fuck boys. Easier, simpler, that's a kind of homosexuality that is just unfair.

Mere regulations; that's all.

This entire thread in summary:

"I'll see it when I believe it."

(January 18, 2016 at 11:51 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(January 18, 2016 at 10:02 am)Brian37 Wrote: I hope you are not missing my point here. Human excesses and or the good or bad we do to each other do not need old books of myth to understand and or manage better. Those comic book explanations actually serve to act as a blindfold to problem solving.

Even though our human souls are made that way; made to hate certain immoralities -bad things-, the Quran is mainly citing the wrong deeds only; just foretelling.

Ah, I wouldn't say a blindfold, but I would say "regulations". For example, one can't solve their poverty problem by invading their neighbors, or deal with their "honor" issues by having sex with men. Because in Arabic Bedwin societies (and that is where I think Soddom is), women are so hard to reach (due to customs and honor crap), to a degree making fucking men easier. 

Mere regulations; that's all.

I understand you truly like the idea of having a god. But there is no such thing as an invisible cognition with super natural powers. There is no such thing as a "soul" either. What humans call "I" is nothing more than our brain in motion. No brain structure, no motion, no thinking. Destroy that structure there is no "I". Try smashing the computer you typed your responses on, into unusable pieces and see if it still works, (I wouldn't recommend it, unless you have the money to replace your computer.)


We were not made like a factory product. Humans evolved from natural, not super natural process.

And again, don't try to back peddle on a horrible idea by switching the word "punishment" with "regulation". Still does not make hell a moral concept. It is still an act of torture, an act of revenge. And still makes humans, as far as those books are concerned, lab rats. I find nothing moral about lack of consent.

(January 18, 2016 at 6:51 am)Sheed1980 Wrote:

(January 18, 2016 at 6:06 am)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: So why is Allah, the author of all physical law, so preoccupied with gay sex?

Homosexuality is forbidden in the sight of Allah. This is why He destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorah, told both in the Bible and Qur'an. Homosexuality is a sin. Just as murder, robbery, and all other sins that infest our Earth today and of times in the past. What people don't realize is God does not cause sin to happen. He gives us humans free will and we are the ones that sin. God sent us prophets and scriptures which have laws and regulations for us to model our lives after. But u get, for example, a powerful country like the USA which tells us in our Constitution that mankind is free to do as they will as long as abiding by laws. Homosexuality is an act against God and nature. It is unnatural. But because the U.S Constitution says ur free to do so, it's ok. So a man-made law in 1776 replaced the law of God since the beginning of time. So if politicians today spoke against homosexuality imagine how many votes they would lose for discrimination in a country where homosexuality is said to be okay. Bottom line. Like all other sins Allah doesn't cause them but gives us the free will to follow or disobey His command set for us in scriptures through His prophets, and He will judge us all on what we do and in the Hereafter we will be punished or forgiven and rewarded for our actions in this life

If allah was real and powerful and hated homosexual acts, then he would have made it so I run a mile I see another man's tonker (I'm not gay, but neither am I repulsed by gay men or the male form). So what does it say that we have homosexual acts? Either your allah is as real as the Stay Pufft Marshmallow Man or as powerful as a marshmallow.

(January 18, 2016 at 11:04 am)mr_j936 Wrote:

(January 18, 2016 at 10:14 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: First off  if a woman can't have children it is still morally correct for a man to have intercourse with her. Ur right the penis can go in different places but a certain place especially with a member of the same sex is immoral. Those are the key words moral and immoral. It doesn't matter to me what other people do with their lives. Islam teaches us that every soul shall be judged by God on what that soul does or doesn't do and not another souls actions. So everybody should let people live their lives and they live their own

I was merely following your logic, you said that the point of reproduction is to have children, and because a man having sex with a man does not result in pregnancy, it is then wrong. Therefore I am extending that same logic to say old people sex is also wrong. You can't pick and choose when the argument will work and when it won't.

Quote:Mrj: Yeah, Christians just annoy homosexuals rather than kill them, but it would be different if there wasn't secular law in charge. In a Christian theocracy, I'd expect just as much savagery as you see in an Islam one.

Yeah I really doubt it. Americans aside(seriously I think american Christians are nuts and not representative of Christianity) They're not killing gays in Armenia, they're not killing gays in the Vatican(they are in mecca) They are not killing gays in Israel, even that bloody butcher the ex prime minister Ehud Olmert is proud of is homosexual daughter etc...

Don't equate Muslims to Christians it really is not the same at all. Yes Christianity had a barbaric age in Europe, but Islam is having a barbaric age everywhere and on several levels of society from the ruling class to the angry mobs...

Re Christianity look at Russia and Georgia, look at Kenya and the rest of Africa; and don't think the rcc and coe would be too far behind if they thought they'd get away with it.

And in Israel with the pandering to the haredi, who in many cases mahe daesh look like modernising secularists, don't be too suprised if acts like this become increasingly common, open and unpunished

(January 18, 2016 at 12:32 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(January 18, 2016 at 6:51 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: Homosexuality is forbidden in the sight of Allah. This is why He destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorah, told both in the Bible and Qur'an. Homosexuality is a sin. Just as murder, robbery, and all other sins that infest our Earth today and of times in the past. What people don't realize is God does not cause sin to happen. He gives us humans free will and we are the ones that sin. God sent us prophets and scriptures which have laws and regulations for us to model our lives after. But u get, for example, a powerful country like the USA which tells us in our Constitution that mankind is free to do as they will as long as abiding by laws. Homosexuality is an act against God and nature. It is unnatural. But because the U.S Constitution says ur free to do so, it's ok. So a man-made law in 1776 replaced the law of God since the beginning of time. So if politicians today spoke against homosexuality imagine how many votes they would lose for discrimination in a country where homosexuality is said to be okay. Bottom line. Like all other sins Allah doesn't cause them but gives us the free will to follow or disobey His command set for us in scriptures through His prophets, and He will judge us all on what we do and in the Hereafter we will be punished or forgiven and rewarded for our actions in this life

If allah was real and powerful and hated homosexual acts, then he would have made it so I run a mile I see another man's tonker (I'm not gay, but neither am I repulsed by gay men or the male form). So what does it say that we have homosexual acts? Either your allah is as real as the Stay Pufft Marshmallow Man or as powerful as a marshmallow.

I'm not sure if I understand ur question my friend. So what does it say. What does what say?

---

(January 18, 2016 at 11:04 am)mr_j936 Wrote:

(January 18, 2016 at 10:14 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: First off  if a woman can't have children it is still morally correct for a man to have intercourse with her. Ur right the penis can go in different places but a certain place especially with a member of the same sex is immoral. Those are the key words moral and immoral. It doesn't matter to me what other people do with their lives. Islam teaches us that every soul shall be judged by God on what that soul does or doesn't do and not another souls actions. So everybody should let people live their lives and they live their own

I was merely following your logic, you said that the point of reproduction is to have children, and because a man having sex with a man does not result in pregnancy, it is then wrong. Therefore I am extending that same logic to say old people sex is also wrong. You can't pick and choose when the argument will work and when it won't.

Quote:Mrj: Yeah, Christians just annoy homosexuals rather than kill them, but it would be different if there wasn't secular law in charge. In a Christian theocracy, I'd expect just as much savagery as you see in an Islam one.

Yeah I really doubt it. Americans aside(seriously I think american Christians are nuts and not representative of Christianity) They're not killing gays in Armenia, they're not killing gays in the Vatican(they are in mecca) They are not killing gays in Israel, even that bloody butcher the ex prime minister Ehud Olmert is proud of is homosexual daughter etc...

Don't equate Muslims to Christians it really is not the same at all. Yes Christianity had a barbaric age in Europe, but Islam is having a barbaric age everywhere and on several levels of society from the ruling class to the angry mobs...

My point was that sex is for pleasure and reproduction. So for whatever reason and whatever age it is being done, it is morally correct when 2 people of the opposite gender intimate and immoral when 2 of the same gender, whether male or female intimate.

The Koran, like the Bible, is a load of shit.

/thread

(January 18, 2016 at 10:33 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 18, 2016 at 9:43 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: That's an interesting question my friend. What you must understand is that God doesn't need our help for anything. He says in the Qur'an He is free of all needs worthy of all praise. So God doesn't give us this information and tell us about paradise and hellfire for Himself. It's for us as His creatures. It's nothing in Paradise that will be a pleasure to Allah nor anything in Hell that can hurt Him. In paradise The food and drinks, and beauty and gold and jewels and sexual companions, mansions, perfect weather, no disease, no sickness or ill feelings towards one another. Sweet fragrances, being waited on, etc. All of these things and so many more are things that God has created us humans to love. So He promises us by living the right life and worshipping Him alone, seeking His forgiveness when we sin in this temporary life in the Hereafter we shall have whatever we desire for all eternity. And the rewards will be so much greater than anything we can imagine. But He gives us a comparison of things that we can relate to in this life. Just the same with hellfire.  Everybody knows how fire burns and what scalding water is. So He explains in detail certain punishment so we have an idea of what to compare it to in this life even though it will be worse than we could imagine so we know what we want to stay away from

I do understand you make a claim, yes. Your actions however defy your logic. If you claim he does not need humans help, then you should not have to be here and make an apology for your claim. I'd suggest that your god is not real, and the real reason you are here arguing is the same reason all religions argue for their positions, you like the idea of having a super hero. Ever consider that?

And sorry, if you value the idea of hell, that makes you immoral. "Hell" is not corrective, it is an act of revenge. I don't care if that threat is coming out of the Koran or Bible. It is an act of torture, the act of bully. In real life, morso in the west, we don't get to torture those we arrest. In the west we contain, and while not a perfect system, because we have our transgressions as well, IE Bush Jr. We value courts and we allow those convicted an opportunity to leave prison if they are not serving life without parole. Even with our death penalty, which I wish we would get rid of, even with that, we have an appeals system to allow for a reversal if a mistake has been made in a conviction.

If your claimed being cannot explain all this himself in person, or doesn't want to just because he can, fuck him. In the civil west, our powers are subject to review and removal if need be. The god/s of Abraham are not subject to that same checks on power, which makes humans his lab rats, his toys. I feel sorry for you if you think that lowly of yourself.

As I stated before we all have free will and are entitled to our own opinions and beliefs. So my friend To u be ur way of belief and to me be mine.

(January 18, 2016 at 4:56 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote:

(January 18, 2016 at 12:32 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote: If allah was real and powerful and hated homosexual acts, then he would have made it so I run a mile I see another man's tonker (I'm not gay, but neither am I repulsed by gay men or the male form). So what does it say that we have homosexual acts? Either your allah is as real as the Stay Pufft Marshmallow Man or as powerful as a marshmallow.

I'm not sure if I understand ur question my friend. So what does it say. What does what say?

---

(January 18, 2016 at 11:04 am)mr_j936 Wrote: I was merely following your logic, you said that the point of reproduction is to have children, and because a man having sex with a man does not result in pregnancy, it is then wrong. Therefore I am extending that same logic to say old people sex is also wrong. You can't pick and choose when the argument will work and when it won't.



Yeah I really doubt it. Americans aside(seriously I think american Christians are nuts and not representative of Christianity) They're not killing gays in Armenia, they're not killing gays in the Vatican(they are in mecca) They are not killing gays in Israel, even that bloody butcher the ex prime minister Ehud Olmert is proud of is homosexual daughter etc...

Don't equate Muslims to Christians it really is not the same at all. Yes Christianity had a barbaric age in Europe, but Islam is having a barbaric age everywhere and on several levels of society from the ruling class to the angry mobs...

My point was that sex is for pleasure and reproduction. So for whatever reason and whatever age it is being done, it is morally correct when 2 people of the opposite gender intimate and immoral when 2 of the same gender, whether male or female intimate.

Either your allah is imaginary or is powerless, otherwise he would have made homosexuality impossible. Well there is a third possibility, he is the embodiment of pure evil to abominate something and then make it so people by their natuer are that thing (for example a gay man can no more stop being attracted to other men than I can stop being attracted to women). So how do you solve this conundrum, admit your god is powerless, admit he is evil or admit hw doesn't exist? And those are the only answers available, because you cannot call a godvwho forces people to do what he says is wrong good.

(January 18, 2016 at 6:43 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(January 18, 2016 at 4:56 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: I'm not sure if I understand ur question my friend. So what does it say. What does what say?

---

My point was that sex is for pleasure and reproduction. So for whatever reason and whatever age it is being done, it is morally correct when 2 people of the opposite gender intimate and immoral when 2 of the same gender, whether male or female intimate.

Either your allah is imaginary or is powerless, otherwise he would have made homosexuality impossible. Well there is a third possibility, he is the embodiment of pure evil to abominate something and then make it so people by their natuer are that thing (for example a gay man can no more stop being attracted to other men than I can stop being attracted to women). So how do you solve this conundrum, admit your god is powerless, admit he is evil or admit hw doesn't exist? And those are the only answers available, because you cannot call a godvwho forces people to do what he says is wrong good.

Again what u fail to understand is God gives us free will to do what we wish. He shows us what happens to certain people of past times with stories in scriptures(Bible and Qur'an). So on the topic of homosexuality, during prophet Lot's pbuh time in the cities of Sodom and Gomorah homosexuality was part of the lives of a big number of their population. Allah destroyed those entire cities after Lot pbuh warned the people to repent to Allah, change their acts or be destroyed. The people basically said "Tell ur God to bring on the punishment if what u say is true" so Allah gives us these examples of the past to let people know who are presently doing the same sins, about His power. So many homosexual people today know of the story of Sodom and Gomorah. However they still continue their homosexual acts basically saying "If God is gonna bring on the punishment let Him bring it on" Just like the people of Sodom and Gomorah said. So perhaps since so many homosexual people are mixed in society with morally correct heterosexual people, God won't destroy the innocent who are obeying Him, and may be holding the punishment for the wrong doers in the Hereafter. This not with just homosexuality but with all sins. But since we're on the topic of homosexuality that's what I am mostly speaking about