(January 24, 2016 at 11:52 am)athrock Wrote:

(January 24, 2016 at 10:39 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: Ya, it seems completely ridiculous that the creator of all things could only "work with what he had".

Would you, dear atheist, have been happier if God had forced the Israelites to obey him?

Would you prefer that He force YOU to obey?

Because God chose to "woo" the Israelites by degrees, you say this proves He was not omnipotent; but if He had used force on them (or you), He would have been the "moral monster" to which you object by trampling on your free will.

This is a classic attempt to have it both ways.

Why not just educate the people that slavery was evil and they shouldn't do it?

(January 24, 2016 at 10:46 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(January 24, 2016 at 10:40 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: So just because YOU think slavery is wrong, doesn't mean it inherently is, according to you. So why would someone else be a monster for disagreeing with you on it?

Yes I think people who think slavery is moral are disgusting monsters, It doesn't have to be right, wrong, or objective.

Since Christians have been at the fore-front of the abolitionist movement throughout the course of history, you have that much in common with them, at least.

Isn't it interesting how the seeds planted in the book of Exodus bore fruit in the Emancipation Proclamation?

Humans created slavery and humans created your fucking god, dumbass.

(January 24, 2016 at 10:53 am)LastPoet Wrote: While morality remains subjective, to us humans, we have arrived at the point that to us is morally wrong to own another human as property. Huge step huh? Tell me CL, what says in that obsolete politics book about the wife and kids of the slave that is released? You can't just cherry pick the stuff written in there that confirm your beliefs. Take it as a whole.

Nice try. I've just re-read the passage this morning.

The man who went into slavery was allowed to be freed, but the wife (given to him by the slaveholder) as well as any of their children remained the property of the slave owner. 

We moderns may disagree with this (see the fallacy of presentism in the OP), but the Mosaic law was unquestionably a major improvement over the codes of the ANE.

Thus, the charge that God is a moral monster simply DOES NOT STICK.

(January 24, 2016 at 10:55 am)LastPoet Wrote: Anyway, why was god afraid of telling the hebrews slavery was wrong, period? Ah politics.

Nope. Incrementalism.

Think it through.

(January 24, 2016 at 10:56 am)robvalue Wrote: If the bible is all we have of god's communication, and you discard most of it, what does that tell you?

If you only take seriously the parts you happen to agree with, then all you're doing is having your own morality reflected back at you. And the fact you have to ignore most of the book to achieve this shows how utterly irrelevant it is.

I've been over why free will is a flawed argument about a million times so I'll leave that one for now

False premise.

Christians don't "discard most of it". (Notice that they still carry it around, read it, and refer to it, rob? So much for that empty comment.)

However, they do endeavour to understand it in light of the NEW Testament which builds upon it.

(January 24, 2016 at 11:52 am)athrock Wrote:

(January 24, 2016 at 10:39 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: Ya, it seems completely ridiculous that the creator of all things could only "work with what he had".

Would you, dear atheist, have been happier if God had forced the Israelites to obey him?

Would you prefer that He force YOU to obey?

Because God chose to "woo" the Israelites by degrees, you say this proves He was not omnipotent; but if He had used force on them (or you), He would have been the "moral monster" to which you object by trampling on your free will.

This is a classic attempt to have it both ways.

You need to remember, to us, this is all fantasy. Delusion. Woo or force, it doesn't matter. It's only a fantasy story.

(January 24, 2016 at 12:04 pm)athrock Wrote:

(January 24, 2016 at 10:46 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: Yes I think people who think slavery is moral are disgusting monsters, It doesn't have to be right, wrong, or objective.

Since Christians have been at the fore-front of the abolitionist movement throughout the course of history, you have that much in common with them, at least.

Isn't it interesting how the seeds planted in the book of Exodus bore fruit in the Emancipation Proclamation?

They where also at the fore front of starting the African slave trade.

(January 24, 2016 at 12:08 pm)athrock Wrote:

(January 24, 2016 at 10:55 am)LastPoet Wrote: Anyway, why was god afraid of telling the hebrews slavery was wrong, period? Ah politics.

Nope. Incrementalism.

Think it through.

Why don't you? Are you seriously trying to tell me that the god who will drown the entire world when he's not being obeyed, will turn Lot's wife to salt for turning around when he told her not to, and will, indeed, raze Sodom and Gomorrah completely for not obeying him, suddenly has to walk on eggshells around what humans want when it comes to this one specific issue, and no others? That's seriously your position?

Methinks you're retrofitting shit into the text that was never there before.

Incidentally, am I going to have to go through all your citations in the OP and point out each and every lie of omission you told there? I've done it before- you people aren't exactly original when it comes to your vile slavery apologetics- but I'd much prefer it if you'd just be honest for once. Can you do that, or am I going to have to hold you accountable for your dishonesty?

(January 24, 2016 at 12:00 pm)athrock Wrote:

(January 24, 2016 at 10:45 am)robvalue Wrote: No, I'm not. I'm saying that I care about human wellbeing, and I'm asking if God does too. If he does, then slavery is bad. If he doesn't, then I don't care about what he thinks "morality" is.

Sure He cares. Hence the "upgrade" in what was and was not allowed with regard to the treatment of slaves.

Alternatively, God could have imposed 19th century abolitionist-style laws...against which the Israelites would have simply rebelled.

Much as the south did during the Civil War of the United States.

Is this not obvious?

Look into history brother. The Bible was used on both sides to justify or vilify slavery. What decided the outcome was war not God.
I believe we do have free choice but then again there is no need for a god to explain why we have free choice. Thus no need to submit to the rediculous rules of a primitive culture.