Certainly every style in existence can be considered a stereotype.

(January 25, 2016 at 12:23 am)Aegon Wrote: EDIT: FUCK this website hates me. This is freaking out. Now the eighth page "does not exist" and it threw off my formatting...not to mention I've had to resubmit this five times for it to work.

Lemonvariable72 Wrote:They why do they need you to stand and take offense on their behalf? Isn't that belittling in and of it self? You know I have seen a few people speak against native Halloween costumes, but I don't recall any of those speaking being native? Is it cultural appropriation if I dress up as the pope? Why is it offensive that I enjoy aspects of other cultures? How do we determine what is and is not cultural appropriation?

Why should I have to be black to point out something racist against blacks (as an example)? As for the natives: white people will listen to other white people before they listen to minority groups. Mostly because a person wearing blackface probably knows it's offensive to a black person, but it would be other white people who would not only condone the blackface but possible approve of it and find humor in it. Having the people you look to "impress" say that it isn't okay would be the more powerful message in the end. But it's not like native peoples today are silent on the subject. Hell, this isn't even a recent thing. Well-known native scholars like Charles Eastman and Arthur C. Parker spoke on the issue and the idea that society needs to move away from the stereotypical image of American Indians as early as the beginning of the 20th century. And what do you mean "why is it offensive that I enjoy aspects of other cultures"? Are we still talking about the examples I used? Reread the post you quoted and tell me how you could construed that as a person innocently enjoying another culture. It's one thing to listen to jazz music made by black artists in the earlier part of the 20th century. It's another to dress up in a racist costume. Why do I have to explain that?

How do we determine what is and is not cultural appropriation? How is it different than any other offensive form of discrimination? Look at something you think might be cultural appropriation. Does it follow the definition of "perpetuating a cultural stereotype that is offensive to the members of that culture and is harmful to the overall image of the culture today"? Then congrats, you spotted it! It's no different than determining what is or is not racist. This is not a problem with the concept.

So now you get to pick for other cultures what is and isn't a offensive stereotype? What about the intent of the portrayer? What if I dress up as little Wayne or any black rapper because I relate with them and there music? Why do you think that you can't relate because they're a different race, isn't that racist in and of itself? Because someone is white they can't feel oppressed? Do you read what you write here? Its so faux progressive and divisive.
Edit: oh BTW your inference that I'm racist because I'm white and white people don't listen to natives, is racist. So noted.

(January 24, 2016 at 11:19 pm)Dystopia Wrote:

(January 24, 2016 at 10:55 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: The people who can fully appreciate the history behind the blues music are the people who experienced the history behind the blues music. 
Its not like you can't appreciate it but lets be realistic; noone from this time can really comprehend the conditions under which it was born or the motivations of its parents. Which is fine, its not a prerequisite. 
The sound can resonate in you, make you feel things deeper and stronger than you otherwise might. It could even make you relate it to certain events or conditions in your own life but thats true of everyone. It doesn't make your experience of it any less meaningful.

I think the blues example is a bit complicated to explain. Let's talk hip hop instead - Whether it is gangsta rap, mainstream, underground or just hybrid old school hip hop, it's a genre appreciated by people of different races. Now, it's fine for anyone to like hip hop - But let's imagine a few iconic songs by black rappers singing about the poverty and racism against black people... If you're white (or any other race) you can enjoy the song and even cry when you listen to it, but you simply can't understand the situation exactly like the group being oppressed in the song because you are not them and will never know in the same exact terms... Many people think rappers are dumb just because they occasionally say "nigga" during songs, but they forget that culturally it can mean a lot for a black person to say the n word to another black person (also, the majority of good artists don't say nigga that much, I can only think of Lil Wayne for that case and he is certainly not very good). 

Using an easier example to explain - I'm Portuguese, and I listen to Spanish music because I can comprehend spoken-Spanish (and read a bit) and I enjoy lots of Spanish music... I can enjoy the music, but my Spanish friends have a much deeper understanding of the artists, the meaning of each song and they relate to specific things only Spanish people (sometimes from only some geographical areas and with specific backgrounds) will properly understand. What I'm saying is not to listen to it, but don't pretend you're an expert about it. I'm not an expert on Spanish music, I just enjoy some of it. I will probably never understand the meaning of some styles of music unless I lived in Spain for quite some time.

Have you ever brought up kids on a council estate in London? For the US readers thats an estate with low rent built for poor people by the county council. In London that usually means living in a shithole. Theres exceptions of course but most aren't really the kind of places you stop for a friendly chat.
My Mum did. This one was mainly populated by black people, they were the majority. Theres alot of estates like that. One time my brother was playing in the park and my Mum was doing something. I can't remember what it was. She turned around to hear two black children debating whether or not to "pinch the white baby". See one of the neighbors had spread the rumor that the reason she didn't socialize with the local community much was because she was racist. We were dog shit there and she wasn't left with any illusions otherwise.
 Does this mean my family can more deeply appreciate eminem than a black family in a white majority estate then? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm genuinely asking because that seems to be where your logic leads. That simply being of the same color as the artist can grant someone a greater insight into the music than someone who has otherwise all the same knowledge they do but isn't the same color as the artist.

I'm not sure this is comparable to a language barrier.

(January 24, 2016 at 9:58 pm)ignoramus Wrote:

(January 24, 2016 at 8:01 am)robvalue Wrote: Gonna have to pretend to disagree with you there Whatevs, as my wife is ginger!

Yeah, you can unfriend in real life. You know the little cog that floats just above your right eye, press that, and then "manage friends". It's really cool, you can make yourself like someone just by adding them.

Rob. I pressed it, but mucked up where I was in the menu.
I think I just reset to the default settings!

My logic circuits are still telling me that I'm an atheist. But what's this God character everyone's worshipping?
I don't want to miss out on anything?

Yeah, don't worry. That's a glitch in the system. They just can't seem to pinpoint it. They keep releasing new logic patches, but it has no effect.

Thump Wrote:Here's what the Wiki, in its introduction, says:

Quote:Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of a different culture.[1] Cultural appropriation is seen by some as controversial, as the use of elements of a minority culture by a cultural majority are seen as wrongfully oppressing the minority culture or stripping it of its group identity or intellectual property rights.[2] This view of cultural appropriation is sometimes termed "cultural misappropriation." According to proponents of the concept, cultural misappropriation differs from acculturation or assimilation in that the "appropriation" or "misappropriation" refers to the adoption of these cultural elements in a colonial manner: elements are copied from a minority culture by members of the dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context—sometimes even against the expressed, stated wishes of representatives of the originating culture.[3][2][4][5][6][7][8]

Often, the original meaning of these cultural elements is lost or distorted, which means that these uses may be viewed as disrespectful by members of the originating culture, or even as a form of desecration. Cultural elements which may have deep meaning to the original culture can be reduced to "exotic" fashion by those from the dominant culture.[3][4][9] When this is done, the imitator, "who does not experience that oppression is able to 'play,' temporarily, an 'exotic' other, without experiencing any of the daily discriminations faced by other cultures."[9]

[Emphasis added -- Thump]

Note that the opening sentence lays it out: "Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of a different culture." Following that, this passage turns to the idea of misappropriation, which is clearly not a settled matter. But the fact is that cultural appropriation is exactly what I'm doing in playing blues or jazz, or cooking Italian food. It follows, then, that misappropriation -- which certainly exists in the forms you both mention -- is only a subset of cultural appropriation.

My point was aimed at people who view all such appropriation in the above-mentioned "colonial" manner.

I stand by my interpretation of my own actions, and the actions of many if not most people in the world, as being a form of cultural appropriation, and if that hurts people's feelings -- well, maybe it means as Aegon says, I'm an asshole (which is a fact I freely admit, by the way, but not for this reason). Or maybe it means people who get hurt by a white boy playing the blues need to get a helmet.

Thump, I don't think quoting a wikipedia definition will prove your point - Even so, perhaps I'm just using a stricter definition of cultural appropriation, and it is my right to do so - The word appropriation itself, derives from Latin, "appropriationem", and one of the possible meanings is "take possession of", so it confirms my view that it's taking something as if it was yours, not just enjoying it.

If you think appropriation is simply cooking Italian food or listening to Blues, then I would agree that it's fine, except I'd prefer to call it cultural exchange because I'm not appropriating anything as my own, I'm just learning about it and using it.

Personally, I don't have anything against people doing what the hell they want - But that's not the issue, I support their right to dress as they please and do what they want, but I can still think it's both irrational and wrong. I'm thinking of Tribal tattoos. You've certainly seen it, it's a trendy type of tattoo art. I don't have anything against people using tribal drawings to express something of their own, but there are people who use tribal symbols just for the sake of it and because it looks good, without knowing what it actually means for the tribe it belongs originally. My tattoo artist refuses to tattoo tribal symbols if the person didn't request permission from the tribe - Which by the way, may be assholish but is his right as a professional. Now, people can have tribal tattoos as they please, but I still think it's stupid and wrong to ink something on your skin that belongs to some group of people without at least caring to know what it means.

Cultural appropriation in the colonial sense is relevant because westerns have used many forms of art and cultural habits from other cultures without due credit, and then we proceed simply to bash other cultures as less (not all of us, just some). 

Many people in this topic seem to think this is just about letting people do what they enjoy - I'm not against that, I'm just saying I can let people do what they want while still criticize things I find wrong, and I will continue to do it.

Speaking of Hip Hop again, one of the things that just pisses off people is that hip hop is frequently seen as an "inferior", "ghetto" cultural movement and rap is seen as dumb music, but as soon as it reached the mainstream media and westerns started consuming the music, it was suddenly acceptable to like hip hop - I'm a western who enjoys old school hip hop, there's lots of good stuff - But I understand many people apply different standards depending on the fact westerners listen or not to it.

Quote:Exactly my point. I don't get butthurt when people up North listen to western swing music, a Texan form of country music. But I do get irked when they portray all Texans as bigoted morons ... not because they're appropriating my culture, but because they're being bigots.

Well, it looks like they are misappropriating your culture then

Similarly, I don't like it when Portuguese people from the south make fun of my northern accent, and I do think they are insulting the culture of most northerns, but I don't stop them from doing it... I just think it is wrong and prejudiced

(January 25, 2016 at 3:20 am)RaphielDrake Wrote:

(January 24, 2016 at 11:19 pm)Dystopia Wrote: I think the blues example is a bit complicated to explain. Let's talk hip hop instead - Whether it is gangsta rap, mainstream, underground or just hybrid old school hip hop, it's a genre appreciated by people of different races. Now, it's fine for anyone to like hip hop - But let's imagine a few iconic songs by black rappers singing about the poverty and racism against black people... If you're white (or any other race) you can enjoy the song and even cry when you listen to it, but you simply can't understand the situation exactly like the group being oppressed in the song because you are not them and will never know in the same exact terms... Many people think rappers are dumb just because they occasionally say "nigga" during songs, but they forget that culturally it can mean a lot for a black person to say the n word to another black person (also, the majority of good artists don't say nigga that much, I can only think of Lil Wayne for that case and he is certainly not very good). 

Using an easier example to explain - I'm Portuguese, and I listen to Spanish music because I can comprehend spoken-Spanish (and read a bit) and I enjoy lots of Spanish music... I can enjoy the music, but my Spanish friends have a much deeper understanding of the artists, the meaning of each song and they relate to specific things only Spanish people (sometimes from only some geographical areas and with specific backgrounds) will properly understand. What I'm saying is not to listen to it, but don't pretend you're an expert about it. I'm not an expert on Spanish music, I just enjoy some of it. I will probably never understand the meaning of some styles of music unless I lived in Spain for quite some time.

Have you ever brought up kids on a council estate in London? For the US readers thats an estate with low rent built for poor people by the county council. In London that usually means living in a shithole. Theres exceptions of course but most aren't really the kind of places you stop for a friendly chat.
My Mum did. This one was mainly populated by black people, they were the majority. Theres alot of estates like that. One time my brother was playing in the park and my Mum was doing something. I can't remember what it was. She turned around to hear two black children debating whether or not to "pinch the white baby". See one of the neighbors had spread the rumor that the reason she didn't socialize with the local community much was because she was racist. We were dog shit there and she wasn't left with any illusions otherwise.
 Does this mean my family can more deeply appreciate eminem than a black family in a white majority estate then? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm genuinely asking because that seems to be where your logic leads. That simply being of the same color as the artist can grant someone a greater insight into the music than someone who has otherwise all the same knowledge they do but isn't the same color as the artist.

I'm not sure this is comparable to a language barrier.

Hey, I think you're painting this as black and white excessively - It depends on context and the person, their experiences and background. I never said only black people can relate to black artists, I merely said that in songs that portray racism against black people in some circumstances are more deeply understand by black people who have gone trough the exact same problems, and it makes perfect sense in my opinion.

I think your case is fine, the only thing is that I don't know if Eminem has any songs against racism, specifically against white people, I don't listen to a lot of Eminem, honestly, it's mostly old school stuff, older than Eminem. I remember in an interviewed him saying it was so hard to break into the business because people working there were overwhelmingly black and thought a white boy from Detroit couldn't be a rapper, but he still made it - I respect that immensely, but that wasn't my point.

I'm sorry that you have gone trough your situation, and I think if there was a song from some white artist who's been trough the same situation and portrayed it accuratelly, you could relate and would understand it better than most people who haven't gone trough the same. Personally, I don't feel the "racism" parts of songs as well because I've pretty much never suffered from it, but I feel sorry for people.

The barriers I mentioned are more than language, language in the situation I proposed was actually the less significant barrier to understand things. I can understand singing in Spanish, and I can sing it more or less myself (with some grammar mistakes occasionally), and enjoy the music - But I'm not going to dress up with the stereotype of a Spaniard, pretend I'm a conquistador and sing the songs as if I was Spanish, because I'm simply not and I would be doing it just for fun and not because it means something when many traditional spanish music means a lot to spanish people.

Using an easy example - Bullfighting is a Spaniard thing, but done all around the world - The problem isn't that it's done in other places (well I'm against bullfighting but putting that aside for a moment...), the problem would be if other countries suddenly decided to directly or indirectly say that bullfighting was invented by them and it's good because of them when that isn't the case.

(January 25, 2016 at 3:20 am)RaphielDrake Wrote:

(January 24, 2016 at 11:19 pm)Dystopia Wrote: I think the blues example is a bit complicated to explain. Let's talk hip hop instead - Whether it is gangsta rap, mainstream, underground or just hybrid old school hip hop, it's a genre appreciated by people of different races. Now, it's fine for anyone to like hip hop - But let's imagine a few iconic songs by black rappers singing about the poverty and racism against black people... If you're white (or any other race) you can enjoy the song and even cry when you listen to it, but you simply can't understand the situation exactly like the group being oppressed in the song because you are not them and will never know in the same exact terms... Many people think rappers are dumb just because they occasionally say "nigga" during songs, but they forget that culturally it can mean a lot for a black person to say the n word to another black person (also, the majority of good artists don't say nigga that much, I can only think of Lil Wayne for that case and he is certainly not very good). 

Using an easier example to explain - I'm Portuguese, and I listen to Spanish music because I can comprehend spoken-Spanish (and read a bit) and I enjoy lots of Spanish music... I can enjoy the music, but my Spanish friends have a much deeper understanding of the artists, the meaning of each song and they relate to specific things only Spanish people (sometimes from only some geographical areas and with specific backgrounds) will properly understand. What I'm saying is not to listen to it, but don't pretend you're an expert about it. I'm not an expert on Spanish music, I just enjoy some of it. I will probably never understand the meaning of some styles of music unless I lived in Spain for quite some time.

Have you ever brought up kids on a council estate in London? For the US readers thats an estate with low rent built for poor people by the county council. In London that usually means living in a shithole. Theres exceptions of course but most aren't really the kind of places you stop for a friendly chat.
My Mum did. This one was mainly populated by black people, they were the majority. Theres alot of estates like that. One time my brother was playing in the park and my Mum was doing something. I can't remember what it was. She turned around to hear two black children debating whether or not to "pinch the white baby". See one of the neighbors had spread the rumor that the reason she didn't socialize with the local community much was because she was racist. We were dog shit there and she wasn't left with any illusions otherwise.
 Does this mean my family can more deeply appreciate eminem than a black family in a white majority estate then? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm genuinely asking because that seems to be where your logic leads. That simply being of the same color as the artist can grant someone a greater insight into the music than someone who has otherwise all the same knowledge they do but isn't the same color as the artist.

I'm not sure this is comparable to a language barrier.

There's a high amount of racism within black communities. Just beat the shit out of anyone who is racist to you or your mum for that matter and that'll teach them next time.

EDIT: SJWs inbound!

(January 25, 2016 at 10:27 am)Dystopia Wrote: Thump, I don't think quoting a wikipedia definition will prove your point - Even so, perhaps I'm just using a stricter definition of cultural appropriation, and it is my right to do so - The word appropriation itself, derives from Latin, "appropriationem", and one of the possible meanings is "take possession of", so it confirms my view that it's taking something as if it was yours, not just enjoying it.

I'm going by what seems to be the commonly-agreed usage.

I'm unimpressed by appealing to etymology for current meanings, though. A word is not its roots. This is especially clear here, where the subject matter is abstract, yet you're using a word in a particular sense because its etymology denotes "taking possession" -- as if that may be done at all with the abstract.

(January 25, 2016 at 10:27 am)Dystopia Wrote: If you think appropriation is simply cooking Italian food or listening to Blues, then I would agree that it's fine, except I'd prefer to call it cultural exchange because I'm not appropriating anything as my own, I'm just learning about it and using it.

I'd suggest you go back and reread my post. This time, read the entire thing. I make it very clear that I do not think that "appropriation is simply cooking Italian food or listening to Blues"; I make it very clear that I see the justice of the complaints about, say, the adoption of native costumes. As for me, I am appropriating the blues -- because like everyone else, I have them some times, and the music is the perfect language for expressing them.

If you'd like to call it "cultural exchange", great, except I haven't given anything back. It's still cultural appropriation.

(January 25, 2016 at 10:27 am)Dystopia Wrote: Well, it looks like they are misappropriating your culture then

No, what they're doing is being bigots.

(January 25, 2016 at 10:27 am)Dystopia Wrote: Similarly, I don't like it when Portuguese people from the south make fun of my northern accent, and I do think they are insulting the culture of most northerns, but I don't stop them from doing it... I just think it is wrong and prejudiced

Such exists everywhere. Confusing bigotry with the borrowing of cultural elements (which strikes me as an effort by SJWs to clothe their snobbery in righteousness) only makes the bigotry harder to combat, while not advancing the cause of celebrating the diversity of all people.

That's what really irks me about this concept of cultural appropriation: the idea that "this is mine" replaces the idea that "this is ours". We're all people, yet this movement celebrates putting up walls rather than tearing them down.

(January 23, 2016 at 3:09 pm)BrokenQuill92 Wrote: So I was hanging out with my cousin the other day and he shows up dressed as the worst black stereotype available. Like a total Lil' Wayne knock off. And this idiot opens his mouth and says "I'm all about that thug life." I of course look at this fool like he's lost his damn mind. We were raised in pockets of accountants and bankers, in gated communities on the shores of Lake Erie WTF does he think he knows about "thug life". But it all got me thinking, can black people appropriate black culture? For instance I love blues music but do I really have comprehension being cosseted most of my life to appreciate it in its fullness, or am I just siphoning off a cool sound?

"thug" is a slur bigots use. I don't care what someone wears or what class they are in, you steal or physically harm others you are a criminal.

I don't care if whites are into rap or blacks play rock, and I have seen both. I also don't care what music you like. What matters is being a decent human. 

I used to do lots of stupid shit as a teen, I was also raised in a white middle class neighborhood. If my "metalhead" friends, who really just used me for beer and a place to party, if we had gotten caught for all the shit we did, we'd have gotten into tons of trouble. I got lucky and I grew out of it.

(January 24, 2016 at 10:31 pm)Dystopia Wrote:

(January 24, 2016 at 2:15 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: It's not just 'black culture', it's culture per se. The word exists in a vacuum because one can use it to describe almost anything.

What exactly does one mean when they say 'black culture'? Is a 1st gen immigrant from the Carribean who settled in an East End London constituency going to have anything in common, culturally, socially, politically,  at all with a gangbanger from LA? Or a Gambian tour guide? Or a judge from Australia? Will her children? Or their children?

I am not bothered in the slightest when people 'appropriate' (???) behaviours, attitudes, stances, from other societal demographics. Humans have been doing that for as long as humans have been around. They'll continue until people learn to actually not give two shits about a person's 'colour' and actually just see the person as a person. Fat chance of that though.

When I was in highschool, my philosophy teacher said culture doesn't have a definition and it's a phenomenon in constant mutation and evolution. It makes sense. I agree with you, but I don't think this is simply people's color, it has more to do with their societal habits. For example, my black friend has more in common with me and the majority of white peers in our group than with a black person living in America with a different culture. I think it's fine to enjoy different cultures, what I think is wrong is when someone directly or indirectly tries to use a cultural habit that they don't know anything about and pretend it is their/that they know it - I.E. People who don't speak Spanish fluently and have never learned the language trying to pretend they speak Spanish just because it sounds cool. IMO it is retarded. Another problem is when people perpetuate stereotypes. Ok, I'm going to dress up as an Indian for carnival. What's that? Basically the most grossly exaggerated stereotype of an Indian. Yes it may be funny for some people, but if you were an Indian you would feel (probably) uncomfortable (at least I would).

To be fair I don't really understand your example. Trying to speaking Spanish when you don't understand it makes you look silly, but I would argue that's nothing to do with culture.

People need to learn and understand that nobody 'owns' culture. That might sound objectionable but I don't own everything that has ever been defined as cultural that exists in England. I don't know, knights and the monarchy and King Arthur and all that nonsense.

Once you've put it out there, people can and will take it, emulate it, distort it and change it. That's been the essence of human evolution, societally and culturally (however one wants to define that). So if people want to listen to hip-hop and pretend like they doing it but in actuality their music is shit, well, that's a subjective experience unique to the creator and the listener. But nobody, not even those born into the select group of people to which that experience supposedly originated (if you go back far enough in time every cultural identity has been appropriated at some point), can have a legitimate right to shut you down and stop you.

Your last point I agree with (re Indian dress) but I would say that, depending on the extravagance of the costume and some other facts, that it might border on racist instead of cultural stereotyping. I guess it would be like dressing like an Asian guy and putting on a straw hat with buck teeth and having a calculator - these are stereotypes that have more to do with racism than cultural appropriation. The more cultural identities disseminate the more these attitudes disappear, imho.