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RE: Seeing red
February 1, 2016 at 8:24 pm
(This post was last modified: February 1, 2016 at 8:32 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(February 1, 2016 at 8:21 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (February 1, 2016 at 8:54 am)Rhythm Wrote: OFC redness is an idea, ofc its a facet of certain kinds of ideas. Your mind does alot of work with ideas...there's not an -actual- apple in your head when you think about one. If it worked like that there wouldn't be any hunger in the world. Okay, and what are the physical constituents of this idea? In what way should neurons be organized to allow us to see red, and more importantly-- if color is an idea, why doesn't selective brain damage not cause us to see new colors that don't exist? It does..you've clearly never tripped.......
Quote:I mean, I can (and have) heard sounds that don't exist anywhere else. I've seen forms that don't exist anywhere else. I haven't seen colors other than those I can normally see with my eyes, even under the influence of drugs or anything else.
You mean you've never seen trails that weren't -really- there......? Or are you wondering why you don't have qualia about something that your visual apparatus would be incapable of perceiving.........?
Quote:Why are you talking about rocks all the time?
They're a good basis for agreement and disagreement. Most people don't argue about what a rock is or what attributes it does or doesn't have. If dna has a will then so do rocks. Is this the sort of will we're talking about?
Quote:DNA has evolved which expresses itself in the form of organisms and their behaviors. It has a will in the sense that the behaviors dictated by the DNA will actually come into conflict with the will of a human agent, and win.
If you have to use the phrase "will in the sense that" we're already done discussing it. It's obviously not will, you're attempting poetry. If you insist that it is then fine, can we get a disclaimer when you're talking about this kind of will?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Seeing red
February 1, 2016 at 8:24 pm
(February 1, 2016 at 12:12 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: (February 1, 2016 at 12:10 am)bennyboy Wrote: I'm trying not to resort to the discussion of qualia, but allow me for a second for clarification. When I see an apple, and I experience its redness, are you saying that redness is a facet of the idea "apple"?
Redness is a facet of the idea that is an image of an apple. The concept of redness may play a part in the non-image idea of an apple.
It seems to me that the "apple" idea is a conglomeration of multiple more elemental ideas, including those of redness, shine, a sphere deformed in a particular way, etc. Is this what you are saying?
How about the least detectable red light, like the kind they sometimes use in eye exams? You know, just a few photons in a little blink. This redness is not part of any other idea, i.e. it is not a facet but rather a simple percept. Would you say this is still to be called an idea?
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RE: Seeing red
February 1, 2016 at 8:29 pm
(This post was last modified: February 1, 2016 at 8:30 pm by bennyboy.)
(February 1, 2016 at 8:24 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It does..you've clearly never tripped....... I'm not talking about seeing a rainbow where there's no rainbow. I'm talking about colors that have no correlate in the real world. Have you experienced such a thing, say on LSD? I've experienced synethesia, but even then, sounds were represented in the normal ol' selection of colors.
Quote:You mean you've never seen trails that weren't -really- there......? Or are you wondering why you don't have qualia about something that your visual apparatus would be incapable of perceiving.........?
The latter. Why wouldn't brain damage (or even just random brain fluctuations) cause the perception of real-world-impossible qualia, like colors that don't exist, or like flashes of another sense that humans don't have?
Hmmm. . . maybe it does, hey?
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RE: Seeing red
February 1, 2016 at 8:31 pm
(February 1, 2016 at 8:24 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (February 1, 2016 at 12:12 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Redness is a facet of the idea that is an image of an apple. The concept of redness may play a part in the non-image idea of an apple.
It seems to me that the "apple" idea is a conglomeration of multiple more elemental ideas, including those of redness, shine, a sphere deformed in a particular way, etc. Is this what you are saying? We may also look at an apple and say, "Aha! That's an apple." (silently, of course)
(February 1, 2016 at 8:24 pm)bennyboy Wrote: How about the least detectable red light, like the kind they sometimes use in eye exams? You know, just a few photons in a little blink. This redness is not part of any other idea, i.e. it is not a facet but rather a simple percept. Would you say this is still to be called an idea?
When we think of color it is always as 'something' colored. That's a composite perception. If you want to call that an idea, I won't argue with it. Are you going anyplace in particular with this?
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RE: Seeing red
February 1, 2016 at 8:37 pm
(This post was last modified: February 1, 2016 at 8:40 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(February 1, 2016 at 8:29 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (February 1, 2016 at 8:24 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It does..you've clearly never tripped....... I'm not talking about seeing a rainbow where there's no rainbow. I'm talking about colors that have no correlate in the real world. Have you experienced such a thing, say on LSD? I've experienced synethesia, but even then, sounds were represented in the normal ol' selection of colors. Why would I..how would I know what they look like? I don't have the ability to perceive such colors. That's not something eyes can do.
Quote:The latter. Why wouldn't brain damage (or even just random brain fluctuations) cause the perception of real-world-impossible qualia, like colors that don't exist, or like flashes of another sense that humans don't have?
Brain damage -does- give us experiences of things that don't exist, and things we couldn't perceive, such as the idea that we can hear the thoughts of others. It doesn't seem as though it's capable of granting us new sensory capabilities. I don't know what you expect, and I don't think you see how absurd the question you're asking is. Hell, everytime you've asked a question along the lines of things you're yet to grasp about this position it's been an easily equivocated one. I'm starting to think you have a problem.
This question is -truly- no different that "why doesn't brain damage give me the ability to see in the infrared?"
Quote:Hmmm. . . maybe it does, hey?
Does it?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Seeing red
February 1, 2016 at 8:39 pm
(February 1, 2016 at 8:31 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: When we think of color it is always as 'something' colored. That's a composite perception. If you want to call that an idea, I won't argue with it. Are you going anyplace in particular with this? I'm trying to understand your position. That's all. I can draw inferences or make arguments later, but for now, you and Rhythm have the floor and I just want to ask questions.
As for redness. I'm not sure about you, but I constantly see colored "static," for example in the dark. I suppose if I consciously consider the very fine dots, I might think "That's a red dot," but I think I'm still perceiving all these little flashes of color even when I'm not conscious of them.
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RE: Seeing red
February 1, 2016 at 8:41 pm
Your qualia is pixelated?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Seeing red
February 1, 2016 at 8:46 pm
(February 1, 2016 at 8:37 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Why would I..how would I know what they look like? I don't have the ability to perceive such colors. That's not something eyes can do. I'm not talking about eyes. I'm talking about the brain.
Quote:Brain damage -does- give us experiences of things that don't exist, and things we couldn't perceive, such as the idea that we can hear the thoughts of others. It doesn't seem as though it's capable of granting us new sensory capabilities. I don't know what you expect, and I don't think you see how absurd the question you're asking is. Hell everytime you've asked a question along the lines of things you're yet to grasp about this position it's been an easily equivocated one. I'm starting to think you have a problem.
Too much ad-hom or metacommentary. I think you haven't realized yet that I shifted gears about three days ago and I'm trying to establish in purely material terms what systems or functions of systems constitute "idea" and more importanly what systems don't and why. This is why I'm talking about DNA-- it seems to me that DNA represents an idea of a person, and Jorm disagrees. What say you?
I also want to know what, physically, represents an idea: what is it, how does it work, how do you identify one?
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RE: Seeing red
February 1, 2016 at 8:47 pm
(February 1, 2016 at 8:41 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Your qualia is pixelated?
Not sure.
If you use a camera in low light, the boosted signal has a lot of noise. It's like that-- at night, especially.
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RE: Seeing red
February 1, 2016 at 8:48 pm
I think the rods in your eyes, which detect dim light, have a sensitivity right down to single photons. I haven't noticed it in colour but in the dark there are little flashes, odd photons here or there presumably.
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