(February 24, 2016 at 9:23 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Allah, the all-knowing, could tell people how to design better cars, or guide those in charge of the car manufacturers to be more sincere. It'll very simple for Allah. Cars can be extremely useful to Da'i as they enable the Final Message to spread quicker than by camel. Makes you wonder why Allah didn't give the Sahabah the tools necessary to make motor vehicles. The people needed to receive the truth, so why not give the Ummah the cars as a supreme sign from Allah? Instead, we have to grapple with numerology and odd things like that to prove the Quran.

Many of the conflicts happened because Allah did not prevent the Injeel and Torah from becoming corrupted. If Jews and Christians had the same scriptures as the Ummah then they would be able to have more agreements with the Ummah. People view the Quran with suspicion (even though the Old Testament is worse) because it's foreign to them. It's different because Allah allowed it to be different.

If there was no need to have the Quran in the first place, millions of deaths could have been prevented. It's very sad that Allah is incompetent like this. Surely it's insulting to say to the Jews and Christian who were alive before Muhammed: You were not ready for the final message. What I'm trying to say is that many conflicts came about of decisions made by Allah. There was nothing supernatural preventing the corruption of previous texts.

The context and definition of life in the Quran, is that it's a mere test, a place where humans battle temptations that arise from the illusion of non-existent supervision, in other words: this is no more than a test, where human behavior would be judged.

The test has no point if God intervened with the ways you suggested.
Even on the backs of camels, this religion reached the whole globe, and God's word that said that Islam is universal, has and did indeed, came true.

The "quran calls for killing people" argument is not valid, since this exact dilema begins and ends, with the human obsession with military institutions.
The Quran advocates peace, and the verses that call for it are all out there. Disproving them would be great, as a starter. But throwing accusations without evidence, is not convincing. Self defense is not a crime.

According to Surah 1, there is no test. Allah decides who will go to heaven and who to hell on their behalf. What they do is irrelevant, if they have any control at all.

I'm sure this is later contradicted, of course. Like just about everything in every holy book is, so that you can pick the bits you like better.

(February 24, 2016 at 1:00 pm)robvalue Wrote: According to Surah 1, there is no test. Allah decides who will go to heaven and who to hell on their behalf. What they do is irrelevant, if they have any control at all.

I'm sure this is later contradicted, of course. Like just about everything in every holy book is, so that you can pick the bits you like better.

How so?
Sura1, speaks about a prayer from the believers to God,
Thanking him,
Asking him for guidance,
To keep us away from the road of the ones whom he is angry on,
To keep us away from the road of those who went astray.
(the above is a full cover of the Sura).

But it has a direct mention to that God, is the owner of the day of judgement. That also, contradicts the "puppet master" theory, that states that God is controlling us like puppets.

My mistake, it is Surah 2.

Quote:6. Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

7. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.

http://www.noblequran.com/translation/surah2.html

That is some evil shit right there. That's all I need to keep the hell away from that religion.

(February 24, 2016 at 1:14 pm)robvalue Wrote: My mistake, it is Surah 2.

Quote:6. Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

7. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.

http://www.noblequran.com/translation/surah2.html

That is some evil shit right there. That's all I need to keep the hell away from that religion.

The seal is forged upon their heart, because of their actions and the way they used their brains.
These explain furthermore:

Sura 74
( 11 )   Leave Me with the one I created alone
( 12 )   And to whom I granted extensive wealth
( 13 )   And children present [with him]
( 14 )   And spread [everything] before him, easing [his life].
( 15 )   Then he desires that I should add more.
( 16 )   No! Indeed, he has been toward Our verses obstinate.
( 17 )   I will cover him with arduous torment.
( 18 )   Indeed, he thought and deliberated.
( 19 )   So may he be destroyed [for] how he deliberated.
( 20 )   Then may he be destroyed [for] how he deliberated.
( 21 )   Then he considered [again];
( 22 )   Then he frowned and scowled;
( 23 )   Then he turned back and was arrogant
( 24 )   And said, "This is not but magic imitated [from others].
( 25 )   This is not but the word of a human being."
( 26 )   I will drive him into Saqar.
( 27 )   And what can make you know what is Saqar?
( 28 )   It lets nothing remain and leaves nothing [unburned],
( 29 )   Blackening the skins.
( 30 )   Over it are nineteen [angels].

It's all about how you think it out. The mentality that is refusing the truth, is a mentality that is not welcome at all in heaven.

I always thought that such verses were harsh, but it is when I saw nuclear weapons is when I realized how sane and logical such verses are. The heritage of ignoring religion, that is. The conclusion of the seal that non-believers forced upon themselves with their own actions. Why await guidance from God, when one is so dedicated to keep moving deeper and deeper in the mist?

The seal, is originating from our actions, forged by our streams of thought; for God to force it, does not mean he influnced our "thinking & deliberation".

Rob, here's an Iyah for you. Quran 6:88 "This is the guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth, of His worshippers. If they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them."

It's from a passage talking about the previous prophets, not that it matters. The point is, it helps your case. Just throwing it in the mix. This is an additionality to the sealing of the hearts, or something that leads to the sealing to the hearts. I'm not quite sure. But if we're not being guided, then surely a seal will form around our hearts.

Quran 2:26 is fun too. I imagine the TQR will be getting to that one shortly, if they haven't already. I'm not subscribed by the way, so I don't know. Then you have Quran 2:29 talking about seven firmaments, and Salafi/Wahaabis really struggle with this one because they want to make science fit the verse. (Hint: The Earth's atmosphere does not have seven layers).

(February 24, 2016 at 12:59 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: The context and definition of life in the Quran, is that it's a mere test, a place where humans battle temptations that arise from the illusion of non-existent supervision, in other words: this is no more than a test, where human behavior would be judged.

Life must really not be important to Allah if there are all of these different religions fighting. Why not send down renewed proof to reaffirm the message so that there can be no doubt? That way only the really arrogant people would chose not to believe. It's very frustrating that nothing miraculous has happened since the time of Muhammad (unless one is Ahmadi*). Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad is kind of like Joseph Smith, just so that everyone is aware. Really surprised his Wikpedia article isn't locked, because the Saudi puppets really hate the man.

*I think Shias have a miracle claim relating to somebody dying on a battlefield somewhere (after Muhammad died), but I can remember who this person was. Maybe it was Husayn ibn Ali, but my history is not good in this respect. I am sure I will be corrected by somebody.

(February 24, 2016 at 12:59 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: The test has no point if God intervened with the ways you suggested.
Even on the backs of camels, this religion reached the whole globe, and God's word that said that Islam is universal, has and did indeed, came true.

Does Allah not want to make it easy/easier for the Ummah?

If Allah is not intervening in the ways in which I suggested (i.e. the floods, cars), then maybe our lives are all just a series of random events? Think about it: If it's not Allah's making these serious events happen then our lives must just be down to chance (since Allah leaves our universe alone).

(February 24, 2016 at 12:59 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: The "quran calls for killing people" argument is not valid, since this exact dilema begins and ends, with the human obsession with military institutions.
The Quran advocates peace, and the verses that call for it are all out there. Disproving them would be great, as a starter. But throwing accusations without evidence, is not convincing. Self defense is not a crime.

The Quran advocates for lots of things. Just like the Bible. It has good and not so good parts. The Bible is full of death and destruction too. The Bible says the slaves are to "come from the nations near you", and I hate that. Since I want to be fair and just, I must point out the things in the Quran too. I am sure the Jews and Christians have their lame rationalizations if one cares to look for them. If I was born in Pakistan or Saudi then I'd probably be biased in favour of the Quran.

Interesting NMP, thank you!

Atlas: So you did what I said, you found a bit that contradicts it and went with that because you prefer it. There's no way you can get any of that stuff from Surah 2.

You say "God did not force it" when it explicitly says that he did. It's just that it also explicitly says that he didn't, at other points. That's called a contradiction.

(February 25, 2016 at 2:01 am)robvalue Wrote: Interesting NMP, thank you!

Atlas: So you did what I said, you found a bit that contradicts it and went with that because you prefer it. There's no way you can get any of that stuff from Surah 2.

You say "God did not force it" when it explicitly says that he did. It's just that it also explicitly says that he didn't, at other points. That's called a contradiction.

That's what happens when things are written by committees.  Each author says something different and no one reads the whole thing before it's published.

Haha, yeah.

If you're supposed to read the whole of the rest of the damn thing before you can correctly interpret the first part of it, it's horrible writing. I do wonder if anyone has actually read it as far as Surah 2 anyway.

Those dogmatically minded assume the book can't contradict itself, and must make sense. But what they actually do is just pick one side of the contradiction and claim that's what God meant all along; while fellow faithfuls choose the other side of it, and also claim they are right.

(February 25, 2016 at 3:30 am)robvalue Wrote: Haha, yeah.

If you're supposed to read the whole of the rest of the damn thing before you can correctly interpret the first part of it, it's horrible writing. I do wonder if anyone has actually read it as far as Surah 2 anyway.

Those dogmatically minded assume the book can't contradict itself, and must make sense. But what they actually do is just pick one side of the contradiction and claim that's what God meant all along; while fellow faithfuls choose the other side of it, and also claim they are right.

The Koran is the most memorized book.  Countless people can recite subsequent verses when given preceeding random verses.  They hold contests for that.  Of course none of the people reciting the verses probably have a clue as to what they are really saying.  They are nothing more than actors saying their lines.