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RE: It's Always Sunny - evolution versus Christianity
February 26, 2016 at 1:54 pm
(February 26, 2016 at 10:23 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (February 26, 2016 at 1:46 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: At what point did Genesis stop being figurative and start being literal?
As far back as I can remember, in my Catholic grade school, we were taught evolution in science class, and we were taught the symbolic interpretation of Genesis in religion class. It is what is generally accepted.
All of Genesis was symbolic?
Jesus is like Pinocchio. He's the bastard son of a carpenter. And a liar. And he wishes he was real.
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RE: It's Always Sunny - evolution versus Christianity
February 26, 2016 at 1:55 pm
(February 26, 2016 at 1:40 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: (February 26, 2016 at 1:29 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: By "reason" do you mean problem-solving ability?
If by "problem-solving" you mean logical, rational, and analytic thought, then yes.
"Rational" is just a restatement of "reason" so that's much help. What I'm getting at is whether reason, to you, necessarily involves symbolic thought or just problem-solving? Other species, after all, exhibit problem-solving intelligence. Do they have souls?
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RE: It's Always Sunny - evolution versus Christianity
February 26, 2016 at 3:04 pm
(February 26, 2016 at 1:55 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: (February 26, 2016 at 1:40 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: If by "problem-solving" you mean logical, rational, and analytic thought, then yes.
"Rational" is just a restatement of "reason" so that's much help. That's actually taken from the definition.
(February 26, 2016 at 1:55 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: What I'm getting at is whether reason, to you, necessarily involves symbolic thought or just problem-solving? Other species, after all, exhibit problem-solving intelligence. Do they have souls?
Computers have the ability to problem solve, yet they can't reason... you know, the whole "Cogito ergo sum" thing
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RE: It's Always Sunny - evolution versus Christianity
February 26, 2016 at 4:29 pm
(February 26, 2016 at 3:04 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: (February 26, 2016 at 1:55 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: "Rational" is just a restatement of "reason" so that's much help. That's actually taken from the definition.
(February 26, 2016 at 1:55 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: What I'm getting at is whether reason, to you, necessarily involves symbolic thought or just problem-solving? Other species, after all, exhibit problem-solving intelligence. Do they have souls?
Computers have the ability to problem solve, yet they can't reason... you know, the whole "Cogito ergo sum" thing
Fair point, but computers aren't other species. Do chimps, rats, or crows have souls? Is the ability of an organism to engage in self-reflection the hallmark of having a soul? If so, do people in vegetative states that result from disease or accident retain a soul somehow, or is their soul lost? If lost, what's the difference between "having a soul" and having certain higher brain functions?
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RE: It's Always Sunny - evolution versus Christianity
February 26, 2016 at 5:11 pm
(This post was last modified: February 26, 2016 at 5:31 pm by Simon Moon.)
(February 26, 2016 at 4:29 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: (February 26, 2016 at 3:04 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: That's actually taken from the definition.
Computers have the ability to problem solve, yet they can't reason... you know, the whole "Cogito ergo sum" thing
Fair point, but computers aren't other species. Do chimps, rats, or crows have souls? Is the ability of an organism to engage in self-reflection the hallmark of having a soul? If so, do people in vegetative states that result from disease or accident retain a soul somehow, or is their soul lost? If lost, what's the difference between "having a soul" and having certain higher brain functions?
This brings up many questions.
Here are 3 that come to mind. I have asked theists about these examples many times. Not once have I received a coherent answer.
Human Chimeras - in somewhat rare instances, while twins are developing in utero, one twin will absorb the fetus of the other twin. It is unknown how rare this is, because it does not always show up in lab tests.
What happened to the second soul? Does the surviving twin have 2 souls? Does "god" recall the extra soul?
"Personality reset" - sometimes due to brain injury, a person can literally have their personality reset, to the point that they are almost unrecognizable.
I have an aunt that had a brain injury that went from being a sweet, caring person, to a raging, paranoid bitch. My uncle had to divorce her because she was literally not the person he married.
If the soul is responsible for what makes "you", "you", what happened to my aunt's soul?
Epilepsy surgery (corpus callosostomy) - to prevent seizures, surgeons will cut the connection between the 2 hemispheres of the brain. After the surgery, patients will have 2 different personalities.
There are even cases where one personality is a theist, the other is an atheist.
Does the soul get to go to heaven based on the theist side of the brain? Or is it doomed to hell based on the atheist side?
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: It's Always Sunny - evolution versus Christianity
February 26, 2016 at 5:23 pm
(This post was last modified: February 26, 2016 at 5:24 pm by Nihilist Virus.)
(February 26, 2016 at 5:11 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (February 26, 2016 at 4:29 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: Fair point, but computers aren't other species. Do chimps, rats, or crows have souls? Is the ability of an organism to engage in self-reflection the hallmark of having a soul? If so, do people in vegetative states that result from disease or accident retain a soul somehow, or is their soul lost? If lost, what's the difference between "having a soul" and having certain higher brain functions?
This brings up many questions.
Here are 3 that come to mind. I have asked theists about these examples many times. Not once have I received a coherent answer.
Human Chimeras - in somewhat rare instances, while twins are developing in utero, one twin will absorb the fetus of the other twin. It is unknown how rare this is, because it does not always show up in lab tests.
What happened to the second soul? Does the surviving twin have 2 souls? Does "god" recall the extra soul?
"Personality reset" - sometimes due to brain injury, a person can literally have their personality reset, to the point that they are almost unrecognizable.
I have an aunt that had a brain injury that went from being a sweet, caring person, to a raging, paranoid bitch. My uncle had to divorce her because she was literally not the person he married.
If the soul is responsible for what makes "you", "you", what happened to my aunt's soul?
Epilepsy surgery (hemisphereectomy) - to prevent seizures, surgeons will cut the connection between the 2 hemispheres of the brain. After the surgery, patients will have 2 different personalities.
There are even cases where one personality is a theist, the other is an atheist.
Does the soul get to go to heaven based on the theist side of the brain? Or is it doomed to hell based on the atheist side?
I just looked up "hemisphereectomy" and it appears to be the complete removal of one of the hemispheres, not the disconnection between the two. Is what you're describing known under a different medical term or is your description a less extreme version of the hemisphereectomy?
Aside from that, though, great points overall.
Jesus is like Pinocchio. He's the bastard son of a carpenter. And a liar. And he wishes he was real.
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RE: It's Always Sunny - evolution versus Christianity
February 26, 2016 at 5:30 pm
(This post was last modified: February 26, 2016 at 5:33 pm by Simon Moon.)
(February 26, 2016 at 5:23 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: (February 26, 2016 at 5:11 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: This brings up many questions.
Here are 3 that come to mind. I have asked theists about these examples many times. Not once have I received a coherent answer.
Human Chimeras - in somewhat rare instances, while twins are developing in utero, one twin will absorb the fetus of the other twin. It is unknown how rare this is, because it does not always show up in lab tests.
What happened to the second soul? Does the surviving twin have 2 souls? Does "god" recall the extra soul?
"Personality reset" - sometimes due to brain injury, a person can literally have their personality reset, to the point that they are almost unrecognizable.
I have an aunt that had a brain injury that went from being a sweet, caring person, to a raging, paranoid bitch. My uncle had to divorce her because she was literally not the person he married.
If the soul is responsible for what makes "you", "you", what happened to my aunt's soul?
Epilepsy surgery (hemisphereectomy) - to prevent seizures, surgeons will cut the connection between the 2 hemispheres of the brain. After the surgery, patients will have 2 different personalities.
There are even cases where one personality is a theist, the other is an atheist.
Does the soul get to go to heaven based on the theist side of the brain? Or is it doomed to hell based on the atheist side?
I just looked up "hemisphereectomy" and it appears to be the complete removal of one of the hemispheres, not the disconnection between the two. Is what you're describing known under a different medical term or is your description a less extreme version of the hemisphereectomy?
Aside from that, though, great points overall.
Yep!
It's a Corpus callosotomy.
Thanks for pointing out the error. I made the correction above.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: It's Always Sunny - evolution versus Christianity
February 26, 2016 at 5:33 pm
(February 26, 2016 at 1:54 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: (February 26, 2016 at 10:23 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As far back as I can remember, in my Catholic grade school, we were taught evolution in science class, and we were taught the symbolic interpretation of Genesis in religion class. It is what is generally accepted.
All of Genesis was symbolic?
Personally I believe all of the OT are just parables, not historic facts.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: It's Always Sunny - evolution versus Christianity
February 26, 2016 at 5:34 pm
(February 26, 2016 at 12:52 pm)Chas Wrote: (February 26, 2016 at 10:23 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As far back as I can remember, in my Catholic grade school, we were taught evolution in science class, and we were taught the symbolic interpretation of Genesis in religion class. It is what is generally accepted.
At what point in evolutionary history did 'souls' show up?
We don't know.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: It's Always Sunny - evolution versus Christianity
February 26, 2016 at 5:42 pm
(February 26, 2016 at 5:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (February 26, 2016 at 12:52 pm)Chas Wrote: At what point in evolutionary history did 'souls' show up?
We don't know.
I'd be interested in hearing your responses to the questions pertaining to the soul in my post above.
Post #165.
Please let me know what you think.
Thanks!
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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