(March 11, 2016 at 9:53 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Here's another analogy.  God has given a child a butterknife, pointed out an electrical socket, and said, "Don't put that knife in that hole."  But then, because he loves the child so much, he doesn't bother covering it or stopping the kid when he's about to put the knife in the socket, because-- you know-- the kid has to be free to act on his own.

I'm not sure I agree with your analogy. God has given plenty of warnings and advice in the Bible to prevent people from doing immoral acts; that's the cover you speak of. Whether you listen to the warnings or not is up to you.

Quote:But the difference between God and any other parent is that after the kid sticks the knife in the socket and dies, God will burn him in hellfire for all eternity, cuz if you don't torture him forever and ever until the end of time, he won't learn nuthin'.

That depends on whether the child has reached the age of reason. If they have not, then they are unable to commit sins in the eyes of God, and so are allowed into Heaven. Likewise, if a child has reached the age of reason but has confessed, they would go to Heaven also.

Quote:Yep. Sounds pretty moral to me.

By your subjective standards of morality perhaps it doesn't, but by God's standard it is.

(March 11, 2016 at 10:07 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I'm not sure I agree with your analogy. God has given plenty of warnings and advice in the Bible to prevent people from doing immoral acts; that's the cover you speak of. Whether you listen to the warnings or not is up to you.

A warning is a warning. A physical impediment is a physical impediment. A parent who knows that his child is likely to stick a knife in a socket, and does nothing but give warnings (cuz you know, children are supposed to get free will even if it kills them?) is a criminally negligent parent. Any child who realizes that his father has such a twisted nature would be a fool to listen to anything he says.

Quote:That depends on whether the child has reached the age of reason. If they have not, then they are unable to commit sins in the eyes of God, and so are allowed into Heaven. Likewise, if a child has reached the age of reason but has confessed, they would go to Heaven also.

It seems to me that if confessing allows one to go to Heaven, then Heaven will be filled mainly with Catholics, but not because of any particular quality of goodness, or even a real intent to serve God's law.

If this is the best kind of justice that God can arrange, and the best future that God can promise me, then I'll pass-- on Heaven, on the God who operates so foolishly, and on even the IDEA of God, which is completely incoherent.

Quote:By your subjective standards of morality perhaps it doesn't, but by God's standard it is.

Because God is magi-special, and no matter how much harm He does or allows, it's all aight in the end? See, if I knew FOR SURE God existed, I might have to throw up my hands and accept this. But this isn't the case. Clearly, the truth is that the God idea is stretched beyond all credibility, and so he must be endowed by his human makers with incredible authority-- the authority to call "good" the many, many things in the world that are clearly evil.

(March 11, 2016 at 10:05 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: But most of this harsh stuff is from the fundamentalist protestant wing of the Christian family.  The Catholic church isn't wed to the bible in the same way.  Doesn't mean it isn't ever deserving of criticism.  But since every adult is entitled to their own opinion on such matters there is no call to be overbearing about it.  No one has authority over what anyone else may believe.  If anyone cares about changing minds, they will do better to give and earn respect.

I agree. But they're entitled to be assholes too. I think, when you've been affected by horrible things, certain beliefs on certain topics make your emotions get the best of you. When someone says X thing about X topic, my knee jerk reaction is to think you're a fucking monster. Doesn't mean they are or that I even think they really are. Debates just get crazy sometimes. I, personally, don't like to let things from a heated debate affect my opinion of anyone else. Parenting debates for instance I've had thoughts about people where for an instance before I take a deep breath I think what kind of sick child abuser am I talking to here. I think everyone in this thread should take a deep breath and just drop the drama. You're right, it's better not to be mean but that's life and it's over. Time for a group hug.

(March 11, 2016 at 9:58 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 9:20 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: He's presenting the Christian position though. The Christian position is that God created us, is our Father, and is looking out for our best interest.

. . . and will burn us in fire for all eternity if we do anything He doesn't like.  You keep forgetting to include that part.

"Anything He doesn't like" means anything evil, though. And it also means doing it purposely with full knowledge and consent of the will, and with no remorse. That's the Catholic position anyway, not necessarily the position of every Christian denomination.

(March 11, 2016 at 10:17 pm)Losty Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 10:05 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: But most of this harsh stuff is from the fundamentalist protestant wing of the Christian family.  The Catholic church isn't wed to the bible in the same way.  Doesn't mean it isn't ever deserving of criticism.  But since every adult is entitled to their own opinion on such matters there is no call to be overbearing about it.  No one has authority over what anyone else may believe.  If anyone cares about changing minds, they will do better to give and earn respect.

I agree. But they're entitled to be assholes too. I think, when you've been affected by horrible things, certain beliefs on certain topics make your emotions get the best of you. When someone says X think about X topic, my knee jerk reaction is to think you're a fucking monster. Doesn't mean they are or that I even think they really are. Debates just get crazy sometimes. I, personally, don't like to let things from a heated debate affect my opinion of anyone else. Parenting debates for instance I've had thoughts about people where for an instance before I take a deep breath I thing what kind of sick child abuser am I talking to here. I think everyone in this thread should take a deep breath and just drop the drama. You're right, it's better not to be mean but that's life and it's over. Time for a group hug.

+1

ps - yes to that question you asked long ago, it is a Warm Fuzzy Feeling, at least it starts that way. And it's (the warm fuzzy feeling) guiding your nature all the time, the treasure within you, and one day inshallah it will be intoxicating wine you drink as well, and your eyes, ears, and tongue, and then you will see with the eyes of certainty how connected the signs of God are to the source.

How long will you listen to the noise of unreasonable doubt keeping you away from hearing the thundering sword in your soul?

(That's my way of saying, I believe in you Losty, I believe one day all this none sense and word salad I speak will make sense to you.)

(March 11, 2016 at 10:05 pm)abaris Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 9:58 pm)bennyboy Wrote: . . . and will burn us in fire for all eternity if we do anything He doesn't like.  You keep forgetting to include that part.

Catholics don't subscribe to the burning part anymore. When I was little, they still did. But as far as I understand it, catholics subsicribe to the absence of god as punishment today. CL might correct me, if I'm wrong.

You are not wrong:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/18/arts/h...gewanted=1

What we believe is that, since God is goodness and love, we truly reject Him by rejecting those things. So separation from God in the afterlife means you have chosen to turn away from goodness and love. You have completely hardened your heart. You have nothing but hate and contempt. That's miserable for a human because we were made for love, and we need it to be happy. That's what the majority of us consider "Hell" now a days.

(March 11, 2016 at 10:31 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 10:17 pm)Losty Wrote: I agree. But they're entitled to be assholes too. I think, when you've been affected by horrible things, certain beliefs on certain topics make your emotions get the best of you. When someone says X think about X topic, my knee jerk reaction is to think you're a fucking monster. Doesn't mean they are or that I even think they really are. Debates just get crazy sometimes. I, personally, don't like to let things from a heated debate affect my opinion of anyone else. Parenting debates for instance I've had thoughts about people where for an instance before I take a deep breath I thing what kind of sick child abuser am I talking to here. I think everyone in this thread should take a deep breath and just drop the drama. You're right, it's better not to be mean but that's life and it's over. Time for a group hug.

How long will you listen to the noise of unreasonable doubt keeping you away from hearing the thundering sword in your soul?

(That's my way of saying, I believe in you Losty, I believe one day all this none sense and word salad I speak will make sense to you.)

You know me, I'm addicted to the dark forces

And while I have no intention or desire to ever find a light amongst your word salad, as a friend I appreciate your vote of confidence

(March 11, 2016 at 10:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 10:05 pm)abaris Wrote: Catholics don't subscribe to the burning part anymore. When I was little, they still did. But as far as I understand it, catholics subsicribe to the absence of god as punishment today. CL might correct me, if I'm wrong.

You are not wrong:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/18/arts/h...gewanted=1

What we believe is that, since God is goodness and love, we truly reject Him by rejecting those things. So separation from God in the afterlife means you have chosen to turn away from goodness and love. You have completely hardened your heart. You have nothing but hate and contempt. That's miserable for a human because we were made for love, and we need it to be happy. That's what the majority of us consider "Hell" now a days.

I believe the worse part of hell, is separation from God, but I believe our dark deeds create fire, fire that is more painful then fire we are aware of in this world. 

Imam Ali taught us to pray (in Du'a of his companion Kumail):

"And say you give me patience to endure the heat of your fire, how will I endure separation from you?"

The pain from the fire is one thing for lovers of God, they may endure it patiently. But separation and distance from God is not something they can endure.

We feel a bit of this hell in this world as it surrounds us. We can scent it if we pay attention for it is one aspect of our humanity. This aspect of humanity (hell) - we must all walk past, and then kill it, sacrifice that animal, slaughter it, and do away with for good.

It causes us pain in this world as well. All of us must walk through it.  The Prophets walked through it without igniting any flames. They passed away that aspect of them without eating of it's ugly headed tree.

I've had too much of it from my own good. Inshallah one day I will sacrifice it, slaughter it, and due away with it. Unfortunately, most of the world is that aspect of us. It's what is most important to be fed constantly to us most of the time. It reigns over our souls. It's made the Pharaoh of our souls, and Moses of our souls remains lost and oppressed within us.

If we can rise the pure word over it, that's a start. Make it obedient. And then one day, when ready, slaughter it. Then slaughter it, and again, and again. 

For evil is it's residence and staying place.

MK, do you guys believe in some form of Purgatory?

(March 11, 2016 at 9:44 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 8:30 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Your parents are doing this because they ultimately see it as being in your best interest, and they, being your parents, have both the liberty and the duty to decide for you in those cases.  Not so with God.  I am not God's child and his interests are not my own.

According to Christian doctrine, you are God's child and he is very much concerned about your interests. That's why the analogy works.

No, not necessarily. We're either children of God or children of the devil. Depends on Christian interpretations and what passages matter more to the Christian.