(March 16, 2016 at 2:41 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: If America is the richest country in the world how come it's debt is so massive?

That is a hollow word, and if it worked like that, then how come only increasing our dept ceiling keeps our credit rating up?

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/03/07/g...ction.html


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...ama-state/

And FYI only one President left us with a Surplus and Bush Jr fucked that up.

Now again, you are stupid, this isn't rocket science, to pay down the dept in any case, you have to have more money coming in than going out. 

GOP matra, "don't tax the rich" and the less we tax them they still hid their money overseas anyway. And when we do suggest a tax hike, like debating a theist, they knock over the chess pieces and ship the job over seas ANYWAY.

And who ends up holding the bag? The rest of us. Otherwise why did we have to bail big business out that caused the great recession?

You'd stupidly have me believe that uber billionaires cant pay taxes? BOO AND FUCKING HOO. CRY ME A FUCKING RIVER.

Huge difference between cant, and don't want to. They can, they just don't want to.

(March 16, 2016 at 2:32 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(March 16, 2016 at 1:58 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: And that's one of the big problems with our two party, winner take all system.  We're seeing how easy it is for someone charismatic to step up, feed off of people's fear largely borne of ignorance, and intensify that fear, creating a feedback loop.  

Now, it's not all Trump, but this is the culmination of the Tea Party movement.  Ignorance is championed.  Hate is fuel.  Fear must be obliterated rather than understood.  Bravado above all else.  The only thing missing is a trend to evangelicalism, and, well, that's what Cruz is for.

At least the Germans had crippling post-war poverty to blame for wanting to listen to a person who had easy answers.  What's our excuse?

"At least" what the fuck kind of argument is that? So because we were and are not as bad off as Germans were, that excuses Trump's xenophobic bullshit?

Uh, no.  What I'm saying is that the rise of Hitler makes (terrible) sense when you look at that point of German history.  They were in a position that seemed hopeless, and a monster capitalized on it.  He gave them a convenient enemy, played into their racism and fear and national pride (which had been bruised because of the previous World War and their crumbling economy), and rose to power because of it.

Trump is different in that he's capitalizing on the same things which we, naively, thought were only in the minds of a small minority.  It turns out we were wrong, and it's even more scary because our economy isn't in shambles and any bruised national pride comes from people like him who have embroiled us in endless war, plus our new modern obsession with drone warfare.

It's not that anything excuses Trump (I seriously don't understand how you came to that conclusion with what I wrote), it's that Trump's rise to power is more frightening because a lot of the environmental things that usually produces fascist wannabe dictators aren't present here.  

Quote:No, that is just another bullshit excuse the rich make to justify a race to the bottom so they can maximize profits on cheap labor.

No we are most certainly NOT Germany, which is why that asshole Trump should not be demonizing Mexicans or Muslims as if they were Jews.

Yes our poor SHOULD have it better, we are the richest nation in the world, so there is no excuse for lack of livable wages. And if the assholes on the economic right would do the right thing and pay livable wages they would find that would create that "less dependency" they all claim we should be.

NOW economics in our species history always leads to unrest just like stretching a rubber band too far, it will break. Now when that unrest happens, we see our species over correct in the opposite direction. The issue is not no rules or nanny state,  that is a bullshit argument. The issue is abuse of power. And any system you set up can be manipulated regardless. 

MONOPOLIES OF POWER can take place in political ideology, religious ideology, economic ideology and class ideology or a combo of those. But there is still NOT ONE government on the face of the planet, friend or foe, that does not invest in the global market. NOT ONE.

Far too many libertarians and republicans have been sold the bullshit idea that "capitalism" is a form of government and it is not. China allows western business and it's one party dictatorship keeps it's power by allowing western businesses. The Saudi Royal family owns oil companies and invests in banks and weapons. Gadaffi was a billionaire that owned stock in GE.

NOW liberals are not communists nor do we want Stalin's Russia. But it still remains that worker pay is not keeping up with the cost of living. PERIOD.

We do have a plutocracy and it does not require a one party state or a family dictatorship to happen. MONOPOLY OF POWER is the issue.

You'll get no argument from me on any of this, especially the fetishization of the 'free market'.  History has shown what happens in a free market - monopolization, stratification, brutality.  There's a reason why we've fought (and continue to fight) for things like:

Safe working conditions
Work breaks
A maximum number of hours one can work
Elimination of child labor
Etc.

What I want is what we're supposed to have:

A minimum wage that is a living wage, like it was intended to be
Corporations paying their employees a living wage
Corporations paying their fair share of taxes
Renewed emphasis on science, especially on renewable energy
Improvements on our aging infrastructure
Etc.

Unfortunately, with Clinton sweeping 5 states yesterday, it looks like the choice is between the status quo and a new reich.

(March 16, 2016 at 10:44 am)Drich Wrote: [quote='Jenny I can't imagine your reasons are racist, Dritch---just knee jerk right.

Their not racist, he is just as white as I am. The man is bad for the country and has set us down a dangerous path just so he can feel he as left 'lasting' a legacy on the US.
[/Quote]

PLEASE Read what I wrote. I said I was sure your view point was NOT Racist, just knee jerk right.

And the words you want are "they are" not "their." They are not racist. Their not racist doesn't make sense.

(March 16, 2016 at 2:59 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(March 16, 2016 at 2:41 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: If America is the richest country in the world how come it's debt is so massive?

That is a hollow word, and if it worked like that, then how come only increasing our dept ceiling keeps our credit rating up?

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/03/07/g...ction.html


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...ama-state/

And FYI only one President left us with a Surplus and Bush Jr fucked that up.

Now again, you are stupid, this isn't rocket science, to pay down the dept in any case, you have to have more money coming in than going out. 

GOP matra, "don't tax the rich" and the less we tax them they still hid their money overseas anyway. And when we do suggest a tax hike, like debating a theist, they knock over the chess pieces and ship the job over seas ANYWAY.

And who ends up holding the bag? The rest of us. Otherwise why did we have to bail big business out that caused the great recession?

You'd stupidly have me believe that uber billionaires cant pay taxes? BOO AND FUCKING HOO. CRY ME A FUCKING RIVER.

Huge difference between cant, and don't want to. They can, they just don't want to.

The GOP has, for generations, convinced the working class that job creation is largely supply side.  That they're the job creators, and that by taxing them jobs would magically just disappear.  That somehow, taxes hurt them more than the working class.  That's bullshit.

Jobs are created by demand.

(March 16, 2016 at 3:24 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(March 16, 2016 at 2:32 pm)Brian37 Wrote: "At least" what the fuck kind of argument is that? So because we were and are not as bad off as Germans were, that excuses Trump's xenophobic bullshit?

Uh, no.  What I'm saying is that the rise of Hitler makes (terrible) sense when you look at that point of German history.  They were in a position that seemed hopeless, and a monster capitalized on it.  He gave them a convenient enemy, played into their racism and fear and national pride (which had been bruised because of the previous World War and their crumbling economy), and rose to power because of it.

Trump is different in that he's capitalizing on the same things which we, naively, thought were only in the minds of a small minority.  It turns out we were wrong, and it's even more scary because our economy isn't in shambles and any bruised national pride comes from people like him who have embroiled us in endless war, plus our new modern obsession with drone warfare.

It's not that anything excuses Trump (I seriously don't understand how you came to that conclusion with what I wrote), it's that Trump's rise to power is more frightening because a lot of the environmental things that usually produces fascist wannabe dictators aren't present here.  

Quote:No, that is just another bullshit excuse the rich make to justify a race to the bottom so they can maximize profits on cheap labor.

No we are most certainly NOT Germany, which is why that asshole Trump should not be demonizing Mexicans or Muslims as if they were Jews.

Yes our poor SHOULD have it better, we are the richest nation in the world, so there is no excuse for lack of livable wages. And if the assholes on the economic right would do the right thing and pay livable wages they would find that would create that "less dependency" they all claim we should be.

NOW economics in our species history always leads to unrest just like stretching a rubber band too far, it will break. Now when that unrest happens, we see our species over correct in the opposite direction. The issue is not no rules or nanny state,  that is a bullshit argument. The issue is abuse of power. And any system you set up can be manipulated regardless. 

MONOPOLIES OF POWER can take place in political ideology, religious ideology, economic ideology and class ideology or a combo of those. But there is still NOT ONE government on the face of the planet, friend or foe, that does not invest in the global market. NOT ONE.

Far too many libertarians and republicans have been sold the bullshit idea that "capitalism" is a form of government and it is not. China allows western business and it's one party dictatorship keeps it's power by allowing western businesses. The Saudi Royal family owns oil companies and invests in banks and weapons. Gadaffi was a billionaire that owned stock in GE.

NOW liberals are not communists nor do we want Stalin's Russia. But it still remains that worker pay is not keeping up with the cost of living. PERIOD.

We do have a plutocracy and it does not require a one party state or a family dictatorship to happen. MONOPOLY OF POWER is the issue.

You'll get no argument from me on any of this, especially the fetishization of the 'free market'.  History has shown what happens in a free market - monopolization, stratification, brutality.  There's a reason why we've fought (and continue to fight) for things like:

Safe working conditions
Work breaks
A maximum number of hours one can work
Elimination of child labor
Etc.

What I want is what we're supposed to have:

A minimum wage that is a living wage, like it was intended to be
Corporations paying their employees a living wage
Corporations paying their fair share of taxes
Renewed emphasis on science, especially on renewable energy
Improvements on our aging infrastructure
Etc.

Unfortunately, with Clinton sweeping 5 states yesterday, it looks like the choice is between the status quo and a new reich.

DAMN IT, stop making this about HER, look, even if Bernie got in he'd STILL be dealing with an obstructionist right. Obama has been for 7 years now too. This IS NOT ABOUT HER.

This DOES NOT have to be the status quo. You don't simply vote and forget about it after the election. OUR decline was 40 years in the making. How did it get that way? Because the GOP have ALWAYS thought long term.

So if Hillary wins, and you are not satisfied then say something, every day as long as she is in office, put pressure on all our politicians to put pressure on her. SHE is only one person. 

This is the other tactic the right has succeed at. That make it about personalities which allows them to avoid substance and when they do talk about their agenda they have already masked their failed policy behind demonizing which causes their voters to vote against their own self interests.

This did not happen overnight and one person won't cure it, WE have to speak out every day now until November and even after January 17. LONG TERM, not one person, not one election.

(March 16, 2016 at 3:28 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(March 16, 2016 at 2:59 pm)Brian37 Wrote: That is a hollow word, and if it worked like that, then how come only increasing our dept ceiling keeps our credit rating up?

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/03/07/g...ction.html


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...ama-state/

And FYI only one President left us with a Surplus and Bush Jr fucked that up.

Now again, you are stupid, this isn't rocket science, to pay down the dept in any case, you have to have more money coming in than going out. 

GOP matra, "don't tax the rich" and the less we tax them they still hid their money overseas anyway. And when we do suggest a tax hike, like debating a theist, they knock over the chess pieces and ship the job over seas ANYWAY.

And who ends up holding the bag? The rest of us. Otherwise why did we have to bail big business out that caused the great recession?

You'd stupidly have me believe that uber billionaires cant pay taxes? BOO AND FUCKING HOO. CRY ME A FUCKING RIVER.

Huge difference between cant, and don't want to. They can, they just don't want to.

The GOP has, for generations, convinced the working class that job creation is largely supply side.  That they're the job creators, and that by taxing them jobs would magically just disappear.  That somehow, taxes hurt them more than the working class.  That's bullshit.

Jobs are created by demand.

Jobs are created by demand? NO SHIT! 

Yes jobs ARE created by demand, and since a business owner wont hire one more person than they need to, that means they need people coming in the door. Now between the uber rich, the middle class and working poor, who do you think are going to be the BULK entering that business?

Now here is a BILLIONAIRE that says livable wages protects HIS feedback loop. He's rich, so what would be your excuse not to listen to him?

https://www.ted.com/talks/nick_hanauer_b...anguage=en

The bottom two classes constitute the BULK of consumers. DUMBASS, pay them less they buy less, pay them more they buy more. They buy more, more workers are needed to keep up with demand.

...why are you yelling at me when I'm largely on your side? Why are you assuming things that I haven't said, and otherwise putting things in my mouth?

In case you haven't noticed, I'm agreeing with you. I'm most certainly not a Republican.

And, yes, Congress is a huge issue that everyone is ignoring.  Single digit approval rating, yet everyone seemingly thinks their elected official isn't part of the problem.  People in power who think 'legitimate rape' is a thing, and for all the talk about it being a group that represents us, it's still overwhelmingly male, old, straight, white, and rich.  But, they convince the working class that they're 'fighting for them' and other nonsense.  It'd be laughable if it didn't come with very real consequences.

GOP voters are consistent.  They always vote.  Midterms, Presidential years, etc.  They're clockwork.  Voters in the middle and on the left often feel disenfranchised, or are otherwise not interested (not that constant media distractions and pressure to feel that way plays a part, or increasingly restrictive voting laws, or intimidation, nosiree).  And that's one of the problems I have with Clinton edging closer to the nomination.

There is a portion - I'm not sure how large it is because corporate news media sucks - of Bernie supporters who simply won't vote for Clinton.  There's also no guarantee that this grassroots momentum will continue past November.  The same problems that have plagued the center and left - inconsistent voter turnout stemming from disenfranchisement and malaise - are still there.  Bernie is the outlier.  An awesome one, but I'm not sure how it continues past November.

So, if/when she gets the nomination, I see the movement ending with a thud because the left has never been able to sustain it like conservatives, and she represents the status quo remaining immovable.  I really, truly hope I'm wrong.

---

Influencing others to vote Bernie (or for people like him going forward) is impossible for me.  I'm the only true independent voter (I largely vote left on the political spectrum, but I don't identify as Democrat because I hate our political party setup, and have never been a "rah rah team" kind of person anyway) in my family.  Everyone else is Republican.  They loathe Bernie.  They don't actually know him, or his politics, but when the 'socialist' dog whistle is blown, they react predictably, and my voice and reason is too feeble to break the hold.  My friends are almost all Bernie supporters.  Those that aren't are Clinton supporters, for a variety of reasons ranging from emotional to illogical.  I literally only have my vote, which I always use.

We really need viable third, fourth, fifth, etc. parties in this country.  I don't think it'll ever happen, but it would be the perfect balance to the insidious parasite that has infected and spread throughout the GOP over the last 2-3 generations.  I can only hope that the RNC is split, and that what few semi-rational members of the GOP remain try to forge their own party.  It may backfire if it happens - I can see them fading into obsolescence if the current wave of hate mongering is more permanent than I think - but something needs to happen.  The two party system simply isn't working the way it's constructed.

---

I wonder when Trump will start handing out armbands?

(March 16, 2016 at 4:36 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: ...why are you yelling at me when I'm largely on your side?  Why are you assuming things that I haven't said, and otherwise putting things in my mouth?

In case you haven't noticed, I'm agreeing with you.  I'm most certainly not a Republican.

Ok sorry, I get that soooo much from the right, I misread what you said. My apologies.