Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: December 22, 2024, 6:06 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
The origin of biology
#51
RE: The origin of biology
(March 17, 2016 at 10:33 pm)truth_seeker Wrote: concepts of mathematics (e.g. the mental concept of a differential equation, etc) exists outside the physical world. It exists even if you remove this entire world. Ergo, its a supernatural concept (as per the above definition).

Math and logic are mental constructs created as labels to apply to physical objects and the interactions between them. They exist within, and are dependent on, human minds to exist, and human minds are part of the physical world. If you wish to disagree, then defend your assertion: without recourse to human-derived identifications and labels, show me a math or a logic. According to you they exist objectively and independently of humans, so you should be able to do that, else your claim really isn't justified by anything, now is it?

... I mean, it's a silly little word game you're playing anyway. It's just a happy accident that it's also wrong even within the context of the self-serving game itself.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
Reply
#52
RE: The origin of biology
(March 17, 2016 at 8:23 pm)truth_seeker Wrote:
(March 17, 2016 at 3:36 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Without appealing to the lack of a natural explanation for one or more observations of the real world, how did you determine that the supernatural had a positive likelihood?

You are making a logical fallacy.

You are (correctly) assuming that the set of possible explanations expand in the presence of new evidence.
But you are ignoring that new evidence can also shrink the set of possible explanations.

Accordingly, its is completely fine to say that two statements:
A     and      NOT A 
are both possible, with non-zero likelihood, until further evidence reduces the likelihood of one of them to exact zero

If either A or not A cannot be established as possible, and are in fact indicated to be impossible or non-present by all available data, then there's no reason at all to assign a positive likelihood to them. You're shifting the burden of proof by expecting us to prove you wrong before you'll take your bald assertion of the supernatural off the table. The fallacy is yours, not mine, and my question stands.

... You know, along with the rest of the post that you clipped out.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
Reply
#53
RE: The origin of biology
(March 17, 2016 at 9:30 pm)truth_seeker Wrote:
(March 17, 2016 at 9:17 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Really, Truth?  You came here to argue for God and, "abiogenesis isn't a scientific fact yet" is the BEST you could come up with?  It's like you're not even trying...*yawn*

Can you please show me a peer reviewed replicated experiment that was able to recreate abiogenensis in vitro?
If you can, I retract my statements.

Go ahead. I'll be waiting here Smile

Can you please show a peer reviewed replicated experiment that shows the supernatural to be the explanation for fucking anything?
Thief and assassin for hire. Member in good standing of the Rogues Guild.
Reply
#54
RE: The origin of biology
(March 17, 2016 at 10:33 pm)truth_seeker Wrote:
(March 17, 2016 at 10:13 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Are claiming that mathematics and logic are supernatural?

Please explain...

@LadyCamus, I'm glad you're enjoying this Smile

@Simon.
Sure. I'll explain it below.

We agreed (myself and you, Simon) on the following definition of supernatural:

Quote:supernatural (or metaphysical, if you want) simply means a concept that exists outside the physical world.

concepts of mathematics (e.g. the mental concept of a differential equation, etc) exists outside the physical world. It exists even if you remove this entire world. Ergo, its a supernatural concept (as per the above definition).

As soon as you grant independent existence to any concept, it becomes somewhat supernatural. Like the concept of root beer floats, among others. Why single out maths?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

Reply
#55
RE: The origin of biology
(March 18, 2016 at 3:56 pm)Esquilax Wrote:
(March 17, 2016 at 10:33 pm)truth_seeker Wrote: concepts of mathematics (e.g. the mental concept of a differential equation, etc) exists outside the physical world. It exists even if you remove this entire world. Ergo, its a supernatural concept (as per the above definition).
Math and logic are mental constructs created as labels to apply to physical objects and the interactions between them. They exist within, and are dependent on, human minds to exist, and human minds are part of the physical world. If you wish to disagree, then defend your assertion: without recourse to human-derived identifications and labels, show me a math or a logic. According to you they exist objectively and independently of humans, so you should be able to do that, else your claim really isn't justified by anything, now is it?
I completely disagree.
Here's a very simple thought experiment:
**Before** all human beings made the statement that says: "1 + 1 = 2".
Wasn't it actually true? Ofcourse it was!
The question to you: where did it exist? there was no human mind in which it was contained


(March 18, 2016 at 3:58 pm)Esquilax Wrote:
(March 17, 2016 at 8:23 pm)truth_seeker Wrote: You are making a logical fallacy.

You are (correctly) assuming that the set of possible explanations expand in the presence of new evidence.
But you are ignoring that new evidence can also shrink the set of possible explanations.

Accordingly, its is completely fine to say that two statements:
A     and      NOT A 
are both possible, with non-zero likelihood, until further evidence reduces the likelihood of one of them to exact zero

If either A or not A cannot be established as possible, and are in fact indicated to be impossible or non-present by all available data, then there's no reason at all to assign a positive likelihood to them. You're shifting the burden of proof by expecting us to prove you wrong before you'll take your bald assertion of the supernatural off the table. The fallacy is yours, not mine, and my question stands.

... You know, along with the rest of the post that you clipped out.

if something was "in fact indicated to be impossible", then we wouldn't be having this entire discussion of including both possibilities A and (not A). My entire argument (check the OP) was exactly that because of the absence of fact, we do need to allow for the two possibilities (with varying likelihoods).

Factual evidence absent = two possibilities (A) and (not A) with varying likelihood
Factual evidence present = one known outcome (A)
Its really very simple, I'm not sure why are you making a counter-argument.


(March 18, 2016 at 6:59 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote:
(March 17, 2016 at 9:30 pm)truth_seeker Wrote: Can you please show me a peer reviewed replicated experiment that was able to recreate abiogenensis in vitro?
If you can, I retract my statements.

Go ahead. I'll be waiting here Smile

Can you please show a peer reviewed replicated experiment that shows the supernatural to be the explanation for fucking anything?

Exactly my point. There is no peer review experiment supporting the supernatural. Therefore, it stays within the two possibilities (A and not A) as explained above. Exactly my point.
Reply
#56
RE: The origin of biology
1+1 is logical observational statement of fact.
Why would you think it existed or didn't exist before conscious life?

When meteors fell, the ones twice as heavy did twice the damage? Why?
Asking such innate questions is like saying: shit is brown, not blue, therefore supernatural!
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
Reply
#57
RE: The origin of biology
(March 19, 2016 at 12:12 am)ignoramus Wrote: 1+1 is logical observational statement of fact.
Why would you think it existed or didn't exist before conscious life?

Follow this argument.
It has been claimed that consciousness (your emotions thoughts etc) are simply a network of chemical reactions in your brain. (in other words, a purely natural phenomenon).

Therefore, when you die, or when human are not present, those emotions and thoughts have no existence. Because, as per the above worldview, those emotions/thoughts were simply a network of matter, so when that network was destroyed, the thoughts/emotions are destroyed too.

The same does not follow for logic.
the 1+1 statement holds true even without a human mind as I mentioned in the last post.

the question is then: Where does it exist? shouldn't it have been nonexistent, just like the other mental constructs of thoughts, emotions?
Reply
#58
RE: The origin of biology
(March 19, 2016 at 12:24 am)truth_seeker Wrote:
(March 19, 2016 at 12:12 am)ignoramus Wrote: 1+1 is logical observational statement of fact.
Why would you think it existed or didn't exist before conscious life?

Follow this argument.
It has been claimed that consciousness (your emotions thoughts etc) are simply a network of chemical reactions in your brain. (in other words, a purely natural phenomenon).

Therefore, when you die, or when human are not present, those emotions and thoughts have no existence. Because, as per the above worldview, those emotions/thoughts were simply a network of matter, so when that network was destroyed, the thoughts/emotions are destroyed too.

The same does not follow for logic.
the 1+1 statement holds true even without a human mind as I mentioned in the last post.

the question is then: Where does it exist? shouldn't it have been nonexistent, just like the other mental constructs of thoughts, emotions?

1+1=2 didn't exist anywhere. It is just words and symbols made by humans to describe something. The 1 represents one thing/object and the 2 represents two of those things/objects. Made by humans, for humans to understand. I don't understand the confusion.
Reply
#59
RE: The origin of biology
(March 19, 2016 at 7:05 am)RozKek Wrote:
(March 19, 2016 at 12:24 am)truth_seeker Wrote: Follow this argument.
It has been claimed that consciousness (your emotions thoughts etc) are simply a network of chemical reactions in your brain. (in other words, a purely natural phenomenon).

Therefore, when you die, or when human are not present, those emotions and thoughts have no existence. Because, as per the above worldview, those emotions/thoughts were simply a network of matter, so when that network was destroyed, the thoughts/emotions are destroyed too.

The same does not follow for logic.
the 1+1 statement holds true even without a human mind as I mentioned in the last post.

the question is then: Where does it exist? shouldn't it have been nonexistent, just like the other mental constructs of thoughts, emotions?

1+1=2 didn't exist anywhere. It is just words and symbols made by humans to describe something. The 1 represents one thing/object and the 2 represents two of those things/objects. Made by humans, for humans to understand. I don't understand the confusion.

It's not confusion. It's willful ignorance coupled with obfuscation.
Thief and assassin for hire. Member in good standing of the Rogues Guild.
Reply
#60
RE: The origin of biology
Nope.

I've not even heard a sensible definition of what "supernatural" is meant to be.

It requires an equivocation between our theories about the laws of nature and the actual laws themselves; and also assumes science is 100% accurate while saying it "can't account for some things".

However you define this supernatural thing, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate it is possible such a thing exists. I covered all this in a video recently:

It's also in no way useful to slap this kind of language on the unexplained, except to try and make magical explanations sound less ridiculous.

Any supernatural causation is indistinguishable from another; which is indistinguishable from no supernatural causation at all. If we had a way to detect the difference, then it would be within the realm of science.

http://youtu.be/J5u5-Bg2ENQ
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Origin ShirkahnW 17 3350 January 23, 2018 at 6:14 am
Last Post: Gawdzilla Sama



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)