(April 11, 2016 at 12:44 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Dripshit, you really need to absorb the words of Abe Lincoln.

the only thing foolish is pretending the emperor has 'new cloths' that only the 'wise' can see when clearly he is not wearing anything at all!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes

Or in this case potentially allowing the mentally ill set the standards of society.

Null hypothesis.

(April 11, 2016 at 12:57 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: So . . . the guy who hectors others in another thread about supposedly wishing to restrict a bigot's "free exercise of religion" when he violates anti-discrimination laws now wants to know why the 'patients' -- supposedly "mentally compromised people" -- run the 'asylum' when they try to affect national policy by exercising their First Amendment rights to petition the government for a redress of grievances. What a jackass.

But again, if GID people do indeed have a diagnosible mental illness Shouldn't the treatment of said illness be in the forefront of this society's concern, rather than changing society to allow enabling of said illness?

(April 12, 2016 at 10:03 am)Drich Wrote:

(April 11, 2016 at 12:43 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: WTF is wrong with you?  You are such a bigot.  What if you woke up tomorrow and looked down in the shower and saw the opposite genitalia from what you have now?  Would you be happy with the answer: "well too bad, you just have to get on with life and learn to live with it!"  

You are one of the worst people I've ever known...on the Internet.  [emoji45]

oh, wait I don't care what you think if you are not rational enough to discuss the details of this disorder.

Oh, I did, but I'm allowed to provide you with my first impressions. [emoji12]

(April 12, 2016 at 10:14 am)Drich Wrote:

(April 11, 2016 at 12:57 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: So . . . the guy who hectors others in another thread about supposedly wishing to restrict a bigot's "free exercise of religion" when he violates anti-discrimination laws now wants to know why the 'patients' -- supposedly "mentally compromised people" -- run the 'asylum' when they try to affect national policy by exercising their First Amendment rights to petition the government for a redress of grievances. What a jackass.

But again, if GID people do indeed have a diagnosible mental illness Shouldn't the treatment of said illness be in the forefront of this society's concern, rather than changing society to allow enabling of said illness?

And who are you to have the final say on what is or isn't efficacious treatment? Are you a licensed psychotherapist? Or, you've just arbitrarily decided that transition shouldn't be explored as therapy because you think it's icky.

(April 11, 2016 at 1:39 pm)Mathilda Wrote:

(April 11, 2016 at 10:51 am)Drich Wrote: Transsexuals suffer from a diagnosable affliction called Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder. So then how is this not a mental illness if the word/term mental illness literally means:

Mental illness refers to a wide range of mental health conditions — disorders that affect your mood, thinking and behavior. Examples of mental illness include depression, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, eating disorders and addictive behaviors.
(as per the Mayo clinic)

If this is a mental disorder, then why do we allow the patients to run the asylum? Why do we have mentally compromised people trying to set a national policy that allows them to indulge their disorder?

would we allow people afflicted with Munchhausen access to their kids? Or if you want to look at other people who just hurt themselves, would we allow people who want to cut themselves places they could do so?

If someone transitions and can as a consequent function perfectly well in society. If they are accepted as such in their chosen gender and no one knows their medical history, which becomes less and less relevant to their daily lives. If they are happy and contended with their lives and able to achieve great things, then how can they be considered mentally ill?

Seriously?

It's like I woke up in the twilight zone... Mental Illness is defined by the medical community. It is a series of behavioral disorder that affects cognitive thought. ('good' or bad makes no difference) It has absolutely nothing to do with personal assessment, but rather setting a bar of mental stability and documenting how and why those who can not reach said bar. Then setting in place a course of treatment to help those who cant reach that bar.

Mental illness is not a standard set forth or defined by personal assessment (what you or we think should be allowed.) It is a standard set forth by professionals who currently look at the underlining behaviors (not just what manifests itself on the surface/what you are judging) in order to make a determination if an individual will be a danger to THEM SELVES or others now or in the future if their given disorder is left unchecked.

Dumbass

Focusing on the semantics of what is or isn't a mental illness is the wrong argument here, IMO.

Indeed. Something like 1 in 4 adults are "mentally ill". It's not the same as being incompetent. I'm mentally ill, I have depression.

And none of this being discussed is an illness anyway.

(April 11, 2016 at 1:53 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(April 11, 2016 at 10:51 am)Drich Wrote: Transsexuals suffer from a diagnosable affliction called Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder. So then how is this not a mental illness if the word/term mental illness literally means:

Mental illness refers to a wide range of mental health conditions — disorders that affect your mood, thinking and behavior. Examples of mental illness include depression, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, eating disorders and addictive behaviors.
(as per the Mayo clinic)

If this is a mental disorder, then why do we allow the patients to run the asylum? Why do we have mentally compromised people trying to set a national policy that allows them to indulge their disorder?

would we allow people afflicted with Munchhausen access to their kids? Or if you want to look at other people who just hurt themselves, would we allow people who want to cut themselves places they could do so?

You have a weirdly arbitrary idea of what mental illness is, that belies a rather fundamental lack of understanding of even the basic underpinnings of what you're seeking to discuss. And I don't mean transgenderism or body dysphoria, I mean psychological medicine.

If by weirdly arbitrary you mean a definition provided by the Mayo clinic, then yes I would be forced to agree.

Quote:See, when we treat a person for a mental condition, it is not the sole goal of the treatment that the condition vanishes completely: for a number of things that might not be possible, and for others the side effects of doing so might be prohibitively negative to the point that they outweigh the benefits. If someone had a mental illness, for example, that caused them great depression but also immense intelligence, the goal for treating that person would not be to reduce the depression and the intelligence, and devising a treatment regimen that allows him to retain that intelligence is not "allowing the patient to run the asylum," it's a simple recognition that some symptoms are neutral or positive to the overall wellbeing of the patient.

At what point in the OP did I EVER infer one needed to be or had to be 'cured?'

Again, you've over stepped in your assessment.

I simply asked a question one that you seem to be trying to red herring away with a strawman.

Quote:And that is the point of psychiatric medicine, Drich: management of the condition such that people can function in their lives. It never has been just complete, thoughtless eradication of every symptom, heedless of the overall health of the patient.

When did management ever include enabling?

Quote:It's here that we get to the arbitrary nature of your argument: so, gender dysphoria is a mental illness. Fine, okay, let's take that as the premise of your argument: why are you then assuming that allowing a transgender person to transition as much as they are comfortable with doesn't count as a treatment?

At what point in the OP did I ever say I was not comfortable with transexual progressing into anything?
I simply asked a question.

Quote:It alleviates the symptoms of gender dysphoria very effectively, with no cost, all things being equal (read: without bigots like you desperately trying to make life hard for others because all you have is hate and all you can do is pick and prod and reduce the happiness of everyone around you) to the health and safety of the transgender person, and in fact can enhance their overall happiness by allowing them to live as a more authentic version of themselves. It meets all the criteria of an effective treatment that requires no necessary medical intervention and allows the person to go on with their lives with a minimum of ongoing psychiatric care. There's a clear argument to be made there that it is, at the current time, the best possible treatment available, and yet you don't count it as a treatment at all... because you don't like it. As though your personal opinions are what dictate psychiatric care standards.  

Again treatment was never on the table for discussion. Just the identification of GID as a legit mental disorder, and if GID is a legit disorder then again why are the mentally ill setting policy for society?

Quote:And if you're tempted to respond that transgender people are more likely to be mentally ill or commit suicide, that they get assaulted and killed more frequently and so on, I would point out that all those are symptoms of bigotry against the transgender community exacerbating their life issues, not necessarily something inherent to transgenderism. That is, it's a product of letting the bigots run the asylum without justification, and in contravention to basic standards of care. Your fault, not theirs.

nuupe I don't care what transsexual will or will not do. This discussion is not about how they live their lives. I honestly do not care what people do to themselves or how they want to live so long as it does not infringe on those who want nothing to do with their brand of crazy.