(June 5, 2016 at 2:39 pm)madog Wrote:

(June 5, 2016 at 2:36 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As I explained, I know you can get life from non life. I accept evolution. But it still came from something, even though that something was non living. It didn't spontaneously appear from no force or no matter at all.

We don't know that, but even accepting that how does that lead to supernatural or a "God"? its a theory like many others lacking empirical evidence ...

I'm not sure why my point is so hard to understand. I think the hang up is that you guys are taking this as an argument on my end for the supernatural. It is not an argument for it at all. It's merely pointing out that whether you believe that a supernatural force was at play, or whether you believe nature as we know it, all on its own, started all this from the very beginning, we are still getting into the unknown, and believing in either or still requires a certain degree of faith. Because as far as we know, everything in nature has come from something.

Up until 200 years ago, how the vast panoply of life originated was a big mystery. We simply didn't know the beginnings of an answer. We're at that stage with questions about the origin of the universe. A puzzle always seems unsolvable until you actually solve it. Plugging in a made up 'God' just because you haven't solved it is simply lazy. It's a one size fits all band-aid that doesn't actually solve the puzzle, it just makes it irrelevant. God did this. God did that. That's not a solution. It's a cheat. You could equally say an uncaused and non-thinking thing created the universe and expended itself in the creation. It's not a solution. It's just making things up.

(June 5, 2016 at 2:45 pm)IATIA Wrote:

(June 5, 2016 at 1:14 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ... but you are still putting your faith on something we have no understanding of and no explanation for.

You mean like god?

Edit because I misunderstood.

Yes.

Either way, whether a person believes there was a supernatural element at play, or a person believes nature must have somehow done this all on its own, we are putting our faith in something we have no understanding in and no explanation for. Because as far as we know, as far as we have proof for, things in nature all begin from something else. They don't materialize out of nothing.

(June 5, 2016 at 2:45 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(June 5, 2016 at 2:39 pm)madog Wrote: We don't know that, but even accepting that how does that lead to supernatural or a "God"? its a theory like many others lacking empirical evidence ...

I'm not sure why my point is so hard to understand.  

I understand your point, I just disagree with your conclusion ..... God is just one of many possibilities that could explain what is not known .... nothing other than a book written by semi-illiterate stone age people leads to a theory that god fills the gaps we don't yet understand.

The problem with your book is if everyone accepted it we would still be living in the stone age ....

(June 5, 2016 at 2:46 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Because as far as we know, as far as we have proof for, things in nature all begin from something else. They don't materialize out of nothing.

That is something we can agree on. A theist cannot believe in something from nothing unless god is nothing. An atheist generally does not believe in a something from nothing scenario (or at least should not). One would be hardpressed to find any reputable scientist that believes in something from nothing.

Pretty much everyone agrees "something" has always existed.

Now, which is more reasonable, the universe has always existed in some form or another or some intelligent power always existed then got bored and the best it could come up with was our cosmos and the threat of eternal damnation..

(June 5, 2016 at 2:46 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

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(June 5, 2016 at 2:45 pm)IATIA Wrote: You mean like god?

Edit because I misunderstood.

Yes.

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Quote:Either way, whether a person believes there was a supernatural element at play, or a person believes nature must have somehow done this all on its own, we are putting our faith in something we have no understanding in and no explanation for. Because as far as we know, as far as we have proof for, things in nature all begin from something else. They don't materialize out of nothing.

Where does celestial hydrogen come from?  It's the source of everything else.

(June 5, 2016 at 2:46 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(June 5, 2016 at 2:45 pm)IATIA Wrote: You mean like god?

Edit because I misunderstood.

Yes.

Either way, whether a person believes there was a supernatural element at play, or a person believes nature must have somehow done this all on its own, we are putting our faith in something we have no understanding in and no explanation for. Because as far as we know, as far as we have proof for, things in nature all begin from something else. They don't materialize out of nothing.

Why are theists so scared of "I don't know"? This is a bit difficult to phrase for me: I don't believe nature must have "somehow" done this all on its own neither do I believe there was a supernatural element at play. So no, one must not either believe on of those two options. I can't help but notice when theists speak of the existence of the universe you speak as if there is some purpose to it and if it has meaning to it. Once you stop believing that you can understand that it's very possible and more probable than any of the other options that the universe simply just is. I simply believe that the universe just is, I don't believe nature did it on its own, I don't even believe nature is a thing, really. Nature is just a word describing something, it doesn't have a life, it can't do anything, everything just is and there is no evidence at all for a supernatural element. That's what I think is true based on my knowledge. Long before humans existed, no one could even ask "what caused the existence of the universe", but the universe was still there, clearly. It had no meaning assigned to it, no one was there to give it purpose or meaning, but the universe still existed, and it just was, as far as we know. Before you say, well a god was there to give it meaning, first give me evidence for the existence of a god that was there giving it meaning, and I really mean evidence, not a poem, not sophistry, not arguments, nothing except evidence. If god can't be put in a lab and proved, then there is no convincing reason nor evidence to believe in a god.

And yes, right now, everything I see infront of me is created by something else, but who says that the everyday logic we experience applies to the beginning of the universe? But, afterall I do not know and I'm fine with it, I'm a human with limited power and such, I am not special, I am just as insignificant and purposeless as a planet orbiting its star in the Andromeda Galaxy. I might not be able to know everything and sure as hell never will. And there is no evidence at all for the existence of a supernatural being, and nature is just a human concept not capable of doing anything, deep down it's just particles, atoms and matter like everything else, it didn't somehow create something.

Simply put, I don't put my faith in anything.

(June 5, 2016 at 9:56 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(June 5, 2016 at 12:12 am)Maelstrom Wrote: I wonder why that is.

MY POINT EXACTLY! Maybe if you were less biased against the theistic AF members you would direct your snipes toward Equilax and Jor. They, not me, are suggesting that non-existent things can cause change. Nevertheless, should I take your comment as tacit agreement that common everyday observations can serve as evidence, observations such as "only actual things cause change."

Doesn't it sound quite similiar to an immaterial being causing change/affecting the material world?

(June 5, 2016 at 2:08 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: I'm not sure why "we don't know" needs to equal "supernatural". I comfortable with we don't know, YET.

Re-did the Miller in college organic. Think it has been superseded but still a good point.

It has come to the point where theists even reinterpret our own words.

(June 5, 2016 at 4:02 pm)RozKek Wrote: ... the universe simply just is.

My belief also and it offers no contradictions. No beginning, no end, no time, it just is.