(June 10, 2016 at 10:40 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: You've been here this long and are still resorting to argument from Bible verse? That verse is one of the clearest evidences of the Bible's fallibility to an atheist, because we know it isn't true. 

It's telling that the biggest problem with God is explaining why he's hiding.

You mean, if we assume your claim is true, why wouldn't we think your conclusion is true? I hope you don't think that was a good question. In any case, if true, our 'fallen nature' wouldn't be our fault, it would be due to the choices of two humans and God. It's like blaming a blind person for tripping over obstacles when you're the one who blinded her.

Your first point is circular:

YOU: Why does God hide himself?
ME: reference the Bible
YOU: That does not count, we don't believe the Bible because it has claims of the supernatural. [repeat]

In your second point you are objecting to why we are in a fallen state, not objecting to "why wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude (as does the Bible) that our cognitive abilities have been impaired and our built-in selfcenteredness (pride) prevents us from seeing evidence that conflicts with the selfcenteredness (a kind of noetic effect)."

Steve, I don't appreciate you fucking stuffing words in my mouth.

Does not count because it's hearsay that can't be confirmed and isn't corroborated, let alone evidence the writers were getting their dictation from the ruler of the universe.

And you have been told this repeatedly, it's too bad you don't have an ounce of integrity when it comes to these discussions.

If we're even talking about the bible, there is no question of god's evil nature. It's plain for all to see.

But at least you're polite.....

And Steve, the reason you shouldn't throw Bible verses at us is because you already know we don't believe them and don't regard them as evidence . Don't be a dumbass.

(June 10, 2016 at 11:23 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Interesting thread.

SteveII, I'm glad you're here. You're saying a lot of things which I have tried to explain before but could never quite put into words.

Thanks CL. Sometimes it takes me 5x longer to research the topic than to type the response. My real goal is to learn for myself and I use people's questions as a catalyst.

(June 10, 2016 at 12:06 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: And Steve, the reason you shouldn't throw Bible verses at us is because you already know we don't believe them and don't regard them as evidence . Don't be a dumbass.

But aren't you asking him questions about the God he believes in though?

He's a protestant Christian. What he believes about God is all in the bible.

(June 10, 2016 at 10:33 am)robvalue Wrote: I'd like to make this general observation:

Is it reasonable that God needs so much explaining and justifying?

Or is it that all objections have already been asked and answered and we are discussing the sum total of 2000 years of thought on the subject?

(June 10, 2016 at 12:01 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Steve, I don't appreciate you fucking stuffing words in my mouth.

Does not count because it's hearsay that can't be confirmed and isn't corroborated, let alone evidence the writers were getting their dictation from the ruler of the universe.

And you have been told this repeatedly, it's too bad you don't have an ounce of integrity when it comes to these discussions.

I apologize for mis-representing your position as to why you deny the events of the NT. However, I don't think it actually changes the fact that your reasoning is circular. You are assessing a low probability to the NT--but not zero:

YOU: Why does God hide himself? (a claim that he is)
ME: reference the Bible
YOU: That does not count, we don't know if the Bible is true. 
ME: Then aren't you the one determining that he is hiding himself.

(June 10, 2016 at 12:06 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: And Steve, the reason you shouldn't throw Bible verses at us is because you already know we don't believe them and don't regard them as evidence . Don't be a dumbass.

I use way less Bible verses than others because of that fact. However, if you ask a specific question that obviously brings Bible references into the conversation (like God hiding himself or miracles) then you are going to get Bible.