(June 12, 2016 at 7:09 am)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(June 11, 2016 at 10:21 am)wiploc Wrote: If he has the power to interfere with our free will, he can still be omnipotent.  A deist god could be omnipotent, all power but no action.

If we have free will, then he doesn't have total power of us, then he isn't all powerful. And saying that he has power to interfere in our free will is pretty much saying we don't have free will.

I don't know why you're saying that.  I just don't see the logic of it.

(June 15, 2016 at 7:23 pm)wiploc Wrote:

(June 12, 2016 at 7:09 am)Constable Dorfl Wrote: If we have free will, then he doesn't have total power of us, then he isn't all powerful. And saying that he has power to interfere in our free will is pretty much saying we don't have free will.

I don't know why you're saying that.  I just don't see the logic of it.

Free will boils down to having a choice. If anything interferes so that the possobility of choosing is removed then no free will.

Omnipotence is the freedom to do anything. If other beings have free will then you are not omnipotent, as there are things you can't do. Therefore we either don't have free will or god isn't omnipotent, assuming, of course, god exists.

PS whether we have free will or nit says nothing about god's existence, just in case any theists are listening.

(June 16, 2016 at 7:41 am)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(June 15, 2016 at 7:23 pm)wiploc Wrote: I don't know why you're saying that.  I just don't see the logic of it.

Free will boils down to having a choice. If anything interferes so that the possobility of choosing is removed then no free will.

Omnipotence is the freedom to do anything. If other beings have free will then you are not omnipotent, as there are things you can't do. Therefore we either don't have free will or god isn't omnipotent, assuming, of course, god exists.

PS whether we have free will or nit says nothing about god's existence, just in case any theists are listening.

First, omnipotence is the not the freedom to do anything. It is the power to do anything logically possible. Assuming humans have free will, what specific "things" would an omnipotent God not be able to do and why?

I thought to post something in here which you may see posted similarly in another thread but which I think is relevant here too.

How do you think Christians can love their enemies, become better people and people grow up/become better people by learning how to protect other people around them if God intervenes every time something evil happens ?

It may be thought of as intervention through non-intervention.

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(June 16, 2016 at 7:41 am)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(June 15, 2016 at 7:23 pm)wiploc Wrote: I don't know why you're saying that.  I just don't see the logic of it.

Free will boils down to having a choice. If anything interferes so that the possobility of choosing is removed then no free will.

Omnipotence is the freedom to do anything. If other beings have free will then you are not omnipotent, as there are things you can't do. Therefore we either don't have free will or god isn't omnipotent, assuming, of course, god exists.

PS whether we have free will or nit says nothing about god's existence, just in case any theists are listening.

What about an omnipotent being, that has free will...  Can they have the ability, but choose not to use it?

Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote:I thought to post something in here which you may see posted similarly in another thread but which I think is relevant here too.

How do you think Christians can love their enemies, become better people and people grow up/become better people by learning how to protect other people around them if God intervenes every time something evil happens ?

It may be thought of as intervention through non-intervention.

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So people suffer to feed the spiritual development of Christians?

I don't think a tri-Omni being can itself have free will. If it is omniscient, it can foresee everything it will ever do. If it is omnipotent, it can do otherwise. But if it does otherwise, it was not actually omniscient to begin with. So an omniscient being can only do what it foresees it will do and does not possess free will in any meaningful sense, it can't choose to do other than what it already knows it will do. In effect, all its choices were made instantaneously as soon as it came into existence and can never be changed.

(June 16, 2016 at 7:41 am)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(June 15, 2016 at 7:23 pm)wiploc Wrote: I don't know why you're saying that.  I just don't see the logic of it.

Free will boils down to having a choice. If anything interferes so that the possobility of choosing is removed then no free will.

That's not consistent. 

If you define free will as having a choice, then what interferes with free will is not having a choice.  

But if the possibility of not having a choice is what interferes with free will, then you have to define free will as not even having the possibility of not having a choice. 

Quote:Omnipotence is the freedom to do anything. If other beings have free will then you are not omnipotent, as there are things you can't do. Therefore we either don't have free will or god isn't omnipotent, assuming, of course, god exists.

Again, to be consistent, if you define a god's omnipotence as the power to do anything, then what interferes with omnipotence will interfere with omnipotence will be something denying god the power to do something.  If god has the power to interfere with our free will, but he elects not to do so, that doesn't interfere with his omnipotence.  He would have to be unable to interfere before he would lose his omnipotence.  

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(June 16, 2016 at 11:12 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote:I thought to post something in here which you may see posted similarly in another thread but which I think is relevant here too.

How do you think Christians can love their enemies, become better people and people grow up/become better people by learning how to protect other people around them if God intervenes every time something evil happens ?

It may be thought of as intervention through non-intervention.

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--So people suffer to feed the spiritual development of Christians?--

Mister Agenda,

It's that Christians benefit from people who choose to do evil but it doesn't mean Christians want them to do evil.

Did you benefit from the soldiers who got injured or murdered during World War 2 ?