What pisses me off in all this is how personal and bitter the argument has become. I voted according to my instincts and my conscience, not out of any patriotic pride - anyone who knows me would piss themselves laughing at the suggestion. Consider that there are only two doors here, one in and one out. Barring the third option of not choosing a door, just because I had to pick one doesn't mean that I followed Cameron or BoJo (or Farage, or Trump, or anyone else) so I can suck their dick. I'm big enough and ugly enough to make up my own mind, for good or bad.

What's strange to me is how utterly extreme the two options are. And there's (apparently) no going back from either of them. And know one really knows what the fuck will happen in either case. It seems like some crazy game of winner takes all in a hand of blackjack, where people don't know which side of the table they are on.

(June 23, 2016 at 1:35 pm)robvalue Wrote: What's strange to me is how utterly extreme the two options are.

Why does that surprise you. There are strong factions desiring people to roll back to nationalism and simplistic solutions. Their instruments are fear- and hate mongering because that's what they feed on like vampires.

You see that with every country and I'm afraid there's no rolling back. The crisis of 2008 and the ensuing insecurity for many people, has opened the doors to a past that better had been stayed burried. Radical nationalism and radical right wing ideology.

What I find creepy is the final nature of it all.

If you leave, you can never come back! If you stay, you can never leave!

Am I being hopelessly naive by finding that a little unecessary? I could understand if it was like "for X years".

(June 23, 2016 at 1:47 pm)robvalue Wrote: What I find creepy is the final nature of it all.

If you leave, you can never come back! If you stay, you can never leave!

What many people, due to biased medi coverage, never notice, is what benefits the EU offers. As opposed to everyone cooking their national soup. Even though the EU is flawed in it's current form, it's the best experiment being brought on the way by two formerly sworn enemies. Germany and France. Apart from any economy being weaker if it's entirely on it's own. The citizens may not reap the benefits in an obvious way, but they would even reap less if they're thrown back on their own devices.

(June 23, 2016 at 1:35 pm)robvalue Wrote: What's strange to me is how utterly extreme the two options are. And there's (apparently) no going back from either of them. And know one really knows what the fuck will happen in either case. It seems like some crazy game of winner takes all in a hand of blackjack, where people don't know which side of the table they are on.

Not sure I understand your point. Both options aren't really extreme, only one is. Similarly, only one option has some degree of doubt over what will happen.

We've been in the EU for decades. "Remain" is a vote for continuation, i.e. how things are at the moment (hardly an extreme).

A more apt comparison would be a poll that asked you "Would you like a cup of tea, or a punch in the face?"

Well, they're at extreme ends of the spectrum. There's no kind of compromise, it's just all in or all out. I understand why it has to be that way, I'm not making any kind of real point. It's just my emotional reaction to it.

So you want an "agnostic" position? Neither fully in the EU neither fully out?

(June 23, 2016 at 2:27 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(June 23, 2016 at 1:35 pm)robvalue Wrote: What's strange to me is how utterly extreme the two options are. And there's (apparently) no going back from either of them. And know one really knows what the fuck will happen in either case. It seems like some crazy game of winner takes all in a hand of blackjack, where people don't know which side of the table they are on.

Not sure I understand your point. Both options aren't really extreme, only one is. Similarly, only one option has some degree of doubt over what will happen.

We've been in the EU for decades. "Remain" is a vote for continuation, i.e. how things are at the moment (hardly an extreme).

A more apt comparison would be a poll that asked you "Would you like a cup of tea, or a punch in the face?"

If I opt for the tea do I have to drink it?

(June 23, 2016 at 2:44 pm)robvalue Wrote: Well, they're at extreme ends of the spectrum. There's no kind of compromise, it's just all in or all out. I understand why it has to be that way, I'm not making any kind of real point. It's just my emotional reaction to it.

I mean, that's true of all members of the EU though right? You either agree to the terms of membership, or you don't. At least the EU has representatives to vote on things, and there are certainly "optional" parts of being a member (e.g. adoption of the Euro).

In order for there to be any kind of compromise the EU members would have to agree to it first, and I doubt they would be willing. The EU wouldn't really work properly if member states could just reject their decisions. It's a bit like state governments vs the federal government in America.