And they ignore all gun deaths on a daily basis even outside mass shootings. They ignore the stats saying you are far more likely to die from having a gun in the home than protecting yourself from a complete stranger. And they ignore the fact that a civilian with a gun successfully stopping an active shooter in public is only 3%.

The reason is painfully obvious as to why we cant gun deaths reduced. One party and one lobby and their constant obstruction.

You don't think that it might have something to do with ineffective legislative proposals and non-existent enforcement of existing legislation?

(June 23, 2016 at 1:29 am)Cecelia Wrote: The problem with fighting the NRA is that they're simply against Gun Control of all kinds.  They paint a picture that the opposition is going to take all their guns.  It's a ridiculous assertion that creates fear among their members, and brings in quick donations.  The Republican Party of course has been running with the same strategy for years.  Opposing the NRA is difficult because those who want regulations can't agree on what regulations we want.  It's a complicated issue.  And they're not going to make it easy for us.  That's why they use propaganda to keep laws that forbid the CDC from doing research on gun violence and gun control.  

The opposition needs to start firing back at the NRA directly, rather than focusing on gun control.  Attack them directly.  Point out their horrible stance on things like gun safety.  They advocate keeping guns hidden rather than locked up. This isn't a safe practice, especially if you have kids in the house.  I know I would refuse to let my kids go to someone's house if they had a gun, and didn't keep it locked up.   they could be painted as the no responsibility association.  To the NRA it's just a horrible accident if you leave your kid around a weapon, and he gets it and shoots himself.  People want to go after a woman for not watching her child at a zoo, after getting a gorilla killed.  But apparently it's too much to ask that someone go to jail for leaving their weapon in a place their kid can get it, and then they shoot themselves.  Apparently this is okay.  I suppose it's a trend, because it's also okay to deny a child medical care and use prayer instead.   If these were unborn fetuses instead, there would be outrage.  

They'll be quick to place the blame elsehwere-- they tried video games, but found that didn't cut it with gamers.  Yeah, you're kind of outnumbered by people who play video games given that almost everyone has played video games (oh, and there's not that many of you to begin with, and gamers are a passionate lot).  So then they shifted their focus to mental health.  Of course--they won't actually do anything about the mental health system in this country.  That's another focus for an attack against the NRA.  They claim mental health is the real issue, then do nothing to improve mental health issues in this country.  They say they'll support reasonable fixes to our mental health system, but haven't actually proposed anything.  They certainly aren't out there fighting to make sure that our mental health system gets fixed.  They're too busy making sure politicians don't expand background checks.

Defeating the NRA wouldn't be hard if gun control wasn't a complicated issue.  But it is.  That's why they don't want the CDC doing research into it.  Kill it before it even becomes an option that most people can agree on.  They know how hard it is for people to agree on these issues.  If you want to defeat them, you're going to have to go after them on everything they do.  Hold their feet to the fire, and don't stop hitting until they're down for the count.

Your first line says it all, and the sane have been screaming that for decades.

No actually it is not a complicated issue. We need to knock the NRA off of it's pedestal, start suing the gun factories, not to get rid of all of them, but to get them to care about how many they make, the types they make and where they end up. And at the same time, invest in better vetting and things like universal health care that would help mental issues. And better economic investment and better pay for workers. But, somehow, when the gun worshipers read this, they always come to a bullshit slippery slope that we want to ban every single gun.

It's easy for them to paint that picture.  If the specs were consistently applied, as in the case of those laws restricting "assault weapons", then all of their guns -would- be illegal.  The gun control lobby either doesn't know this, or refuses to acknowledge it.  Take your pick.  

The NRA, for their part, start the powerbrokering at the level of insanity because it leaves them in a favorable position after concessions and losses.

(June 23, 2016 at 4:02 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You don't think that it might have something to do with ineffective legislative proposals and non-existent enforcement of existing legislation?

We are only ineffective because of one party, and it is hard to enforce laws when that same party obstructs funding. I don't think you even understand how many countless gun shop records and even county and government records on guns are still stuck on paper. It is the same bullshit blame game the GOP pulls on Va Hospitals. Cut funding for updating, cut staff then blame democrats.

Same bullshit tactic on economics too. They point to liberal run cities, but don't tell you that ultimately it is still the state capital that controls the purse strings. So they starve the city at the state level and then blame the democrats running it.

It is also how they get away with lying about cutting federal government then when a disaster happens they magically forget how they said they didn't want federal help.

I don't think you're giving credit where credit is due.  Conn has a gun law that is rendered null by the mere existence of tape.  I don't think that pro-gun advocates wrote that law. No one -has- to obstruct funding..prosecutors just choose not to prosecute (which is uncharacteristic of them, lol).

(June 23, 2016 at 3:40 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: This is where there is a disconnect for me. I mean if someone intends to kill a bunch of people are they going to stop because they don't have guns? I mean the number of massacre victims are pretty similar, there are just more Arson attacks and less shootings. That does tell you something, maybe the guy who burned a bunch of children to death would have shot them up with guns buy choose a different method. I mean nobody denies that less guns=less shootings. It seems like it just changes people's method of committing mass murder, considering that other types of massacres went up. It's all pretty hard to tell when you restrict the conversation to mass shootings and massacres in a low violence society like Australia. That's why I think the per capita murder rate is really the most important stat when discussion gun violence or any other type of violence. I mean would you much rather live in a society with a high rate of murder, but the murders weren't committed by guns?

If people intend to kill a bunch of people, then sure, they will likely find a way to do it, either by arson or more likely via bombs. However both methods are somewhat harder to execute than killing with a gun. Arson requires that all the people be in an enclosed area with little to no chance of escape, and also requires that the arsonist be able to set a fire big enough to spread and kill people before it is put out. Bomb making comes with it's own set of complexities such as acquiring materials, safely transporting the bomb, etc.

The three arson attacks in the last 20 years in Australia, were all strikingly different as well. One was a bush fire, one was set in a hostel whilst the victims slept, and the other was in a home for the elderly. In all but the first attack, the victims were somehow incapacitated in some way which prevented them from escaping in time.

Guns can be easily bought, are easily transported, and can easily murder people, in large numbers, even if the victims are in open areas with the ability to escape, because bullets travel fast.

You might be interested in a recent study which was released yesterday, which might cover your inquiries about murder rates and substituting some other method of murder for guns: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx...id=2530362

The key parts from the conclusion:

Quote:From 1979-1996, the mean annual rate of total nonfirearm suicide and homicide deaths was 10.6 (95% CI, 10.0-11.2) per 100 000 population (average increase of 2.1% per year; annual trend, 1.021; 95% CI, 1.016-1.026), whereas from 1997-2013, the mean annual rate was 11.8 (95% CI, 11.3-12.3) per 100 000 (average decline of 1.4% per year; annual trend, 0.986; 95% CI, 0.980-0.993), with a ratio of trends of 0.966 (95% CI, 0.958-0.973). There was no evidence of substitution of other lethal methods for suicides or homicides.

In other words, the rate of non-firearm related deaths has remained about the same, but has actually been decreasing since the gun control laws were introduced. They didn't find any evidence that people were substituting things for guns either.

(June 23, 2016 at 11:57 am)ChadWooters Wrote: The congressional democrats are hypocrites. They themselves voted against the bill that would have prevented people on the no-fly list from getting guns. Why? Because of an amendment that allowed a prospective purchaser to challenge in federal court his or her inclusion on the non-fly list. In other words, the Democrats objected to the due process guarantees of the 5th amendment. In a free country, people are allowed to confront their accusers.

Yes, pubs piss on us and dems tell us it's rain. Tell me something I don't know.

(June 23, 2016 at 1:20 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: How would you feel if you were prevented from writing or speaking because you were secretly placed on a government watch list for unspecified reasons?

Hey asshole, the Orlando shooter had no record at time of buy. He was born here. It's not the due process, it is the crappy vetting that does not prevent him from buying. Just like our crappy vetting system didn't stop the Va Tech shooter. Va Tech Shooter wasn't stopped from flying, but he murdered 30 people because of the NRA and the GOP.

More bullshit. Nobody is taking away any rights here asshole. You enable gun violence with your selfish fucking attitude.


Holy fuck dude, lets also while we are at it, just allow anyone who wants to be a cop, hand them a badge and gun solely based on that they had no record when they walked in to apply. 

"Due process" is simply the newest code bullshit being used to stop any gun safety at all.

Now pony up with how you think it should be done, but "more guns" and ""do nothing" are not options.

Otherwise you are simply blowing smoke up my ass.