(June 27, 2016 at 11:05 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: It ain't a conspiracy mate, the issue with GMO's and food safety in general with respect to TTIP is that the US allows a whole lot more than the EU, the EU allows virtually no GM foods.  For any bi-lateral trade deal, something would have to give.

I don't particularly agree with anti-American aspects of the EU because I don't think America is conspiring to take over Europe. I'm certainly pro-EU but I'm not anti-America either. The anti-GM aspect to the EU is not one that makes sense to me. It's pseudoscientific -- but it makes sense because it's a diplomatic regulation to have considering the chances that every country in the EU is hardly going to be Pro-GM... even if there's not really any good scientific reason not to be.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:05 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: The Independent article on the matter was exactly the one I found. Still looks like conspiracy theory to me.

Just saying I require more evidence than rumours about plotting.

Wikipedia Wrote:The European Commission says that the TTIP would boost the EU's economy by €120 billion, the US economy by €90 billion and the rest of the world by €100 billion.[9] Talks began in July 2013 and reached the third round of negotiations by the end of that year.[9]

So you read the part where 

"The EU has admitted that TTIP will probably cause unemployment as jobs switch to the US, where labour standards and trade union rights are lower. It has even advised EU members to draw on European support funds to compensate for the expected unemployment.

Examples from other similar bi-lateral trade agreements around the world support the case for job losses.  The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) between the US, Canada and Mexico caused the loss of one million US jobs over 12 years, instead of the hundreds of thousands of extra that were promised."

(June 27, 2016 at 11:08 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I don't particularly agree with anti-American aspects of the EU because I don't think America is conspiring to take over Europe. I'm certainly pro-EU but I'm not anti-America either.

And yet we should strive for an eye to eye level. Which is easier if 500 something million people and a large, more or less united, economy stand behind the negotiations. That's not Anti American, only making sure that every side involved gets it's fair share.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:06 am)abaris Wrote: Now, there's two ways you can react to that information. One is to blow it out of proportion and incite fear in the process to make a political dime, thereby solving nothing. The other one would be, building upon that and try to execute influence by signing petitions, taking the streets, to make renogotiations happen. You can also take it up with the European court, which rejected treaties and laws being to the detriment of the people before.

The bolded part is the part I am referring to when I speak of it sounding like conspiracy theory.

Secrecy doesn't imply danger. If there was a global consensus that the TTIP was a threat to the global economy wouldn't the whole world be out to stop this economic evil?

(June 27, 2016 at 11:11 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Secrecy doesn't imply danger. If there was a global consensus that the TTIP was a threat to the global economy wouldn't the whole world be out to stop this economic evil?

You know, there's a difference between what international business considers to be helpful and what's actually helpful to the population at large. The latter is the problem we're dealing with today, since - at the very least - a pretty large minority is worse off than they were a decade ago.

Secrecy in matter that would concern all European citizens in one way or the other, is a sure way to be open for conspiracy theories. People are already conditioned to expect the worst from their politicians. And there's always someone in the ranks, only waiting for their chance to cash in on that. Now it is the national right. Previously it was the radical left.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:09 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote:

(June 27, 2016 at 11:05 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: The Independent article on the matter was exactly the one I found. Still looks like conspiracy theory to me.

Just saying I require more evidence than rumours about plotting.

So you read the part where 

"The EU has admitted that TTIP will probably cause unemployment as jobs switch to the US, where labour standards and trade union rights are lower. It has even advised EU members to draw on European support funds to compensate for the expected unemployment.

Examples from other similar bi-lateral trade agreements around the world support the case for job losses.  The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) between the US, Canada and Mexico caused the loss of one million US jobs over 12 years, instead of the hundreds of thousands of extra that were promised."

It seems to me like the data and evidence on the issue is unclear. The EU is certainly good for the UK, Europe and the world as a whole in my opinion as a Remainer. In your opinion as a Leaver I at least know you consider the EU bad for the UK. I don't know where you stand regarding its effects on Europe and the world as a whole.

As for the TTIP, I am not sure it has a particularly good effect on the UK or Europe... the evidence seems unclear on that. I don't know what to think based on the mixed data. But I smell a rat of a conspiracy theory especially considering the following: If the TTIP is so evil why isn't the whole world out to stop it? If the TTIP has a positive purpose for the world as a whole then it's my view that it's probably also good for Europe and the UK. Although, I'm still not sure what to think.

But ultimately it's the world as a whole I care about anyway. If the TTIP is so powerful and effects both America and the EU and if it's also so dangerous.... why isn't the whole world out to stop it?

(June 27, 2016 at 11:16 am)abaris Wrote:

(June 27, 2016 at 11:11 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Secrecy doesn't imply danger. If there was a global consensus that the TTIP was a threat to the global economy wouldn't the whole world be out to stop this economic evil?

You know, there's a difference between what international business considers to be helpful and what's actually helpful to the population at large. The latter is the problem we're dealing with today, since - at the very least - a pretty large minority is worse off than they were a decade ago.

Secrecy in matter that would concern all European citizens in one way or the other, is a sure way to be open for conspiracy theories. People are already conditioned to expect the worst from their politicians. And there's always someone in the ranks, only waiting for their chance to cash in on that. Now it is the national right. Previously it was the radical left.

I tend to smell conspiracy theory when secrecy and plotting is mentioned but the evidence on the matter appears unclear and mixed at best.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:19 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I tend to smell conspiracy theory when secrecy and plotting is mentioned but the evidence on the matter appears unclear and mixed at best.

The deal isn't fuckover royal, but it is wanting, according to the information at hand. There's much room for improvement to reach eye to eye level.

Futhermore the main reasons given against the TTIP in the Wikpedia article is the The Independent article on the matter which I read... and the The Independent article was the one I read which sounded like it was full of shit. Conspiracy theorist talk... based on what data? It's a Newspaper. Furthermore it listed GMOs as one of the bad things about the TTIP and it basically told you to "be afraid be very afraid. If you haven't heard of it you should... it's scary man." Sounds like conspiracy theorist fearmongering to me.

Just saying I'm skeptical.

Trouble is if we're talking about a secret organization how are we going to make any clear assessment or find any clear evidence either way if there's nought but rumors and newspaper articles?

Oh well: At the end of the day the only really strong evidence in this world is hard science. The rest of the world is rather murky when there is no clear evidential consensus and rumors abound. Kind of sucks really.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:20 am)abaris Wrote:

(June 27, 2016 at 11:19 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I tend to smell conspiracy theory when secrecy and plotting is mentioned but the evidence on the matter appears unclear and mixed at best.

The deal isn't fuckover royal, but it is wanting, according to the information at hand. There's much room for improvement to reach eye to eye level.

So would it be fair to say that you agree that there perhaps is a lot of conspiracy theory regarding the TTIP but that doesn't mean it isn't without fault?