(June 28, 2016 at 4:51 pm)Veritas_Vincit Wrote: [quote='Drich' pid='1316976' dateline='1467144219']
If you are an OT Jew yes, but even the jews now are not considered to be "OT Jews."

No actually he does not.
He said he did not come to change the law, He did not say it "still stands."

I'm afraid you are mistaken, Jesus did expressly say all the Old Testament law still applies:

Quote:Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

You seem to be lost in your specific translation and it's wording... Allow me to provide you with one that reads a little more fluently:
17 “Don’t think that I have come to destroy the Law of Moses or the teaching of the prophets. I have come not to destroy their teachings but to give full meaning to them. 18 I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it has all been done.

19 “A person should obey every command in the law, even one that does not seem important. Whoever refuses to obey any command and teaches others not to obey it will be the least important in God’s kingdom. But whoever obeys the law and teaches others to obey it will be great in God’s kingdom. 20 I tell you that you must do better than the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. If you are not more pleasing to God than they are, you will never enter God’s kingdom.

So what did Jesus say on the cross just before he died?
When he tasted the wine, he said, “It is finished.” Then he bowed his head and died.

Now back to Mat 5:18 Jesus came to 'full fill the law and in your version verse 18 says  I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it has all been done.


Which again was completed on the cross when Jesus died.

Yes the law remains as heaven and earth are here, but it has indeed changed as the law has been full filled. Which means a NT Christian (one who has received the atonement offered by Christ) is not judged by the law as a means to righteousness. Or the law is not used to 'judge the morality' of the sanctified believer. When a believer is judged it is the righteousness of Christ himself that is judged.

Or do you not understand the divide between OT Judaism and NT Christianity. If NT Christians were to follow ALL the laws and if none of them changed then we'd be OT jews. as it is our dietary, social and even moral laws all have changed. So clearly your interpretation of Mat 5 is wrong.

Quote:And the problem this gives you is that if you do want to disavow the barbarism of the Old Testament, you undermine the Bible's only claim to authority, being that it is the word of God, and you undermine the notion that Christianity and the Bible are the source of Morality. So I would ask you: Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God? Is the Bible an accurate portrayal of God's character? 

Again your summation does not account for the changes in Christianity that were enacted by the forfathers of this religion. Jesus' very own disciples are those one's who made the initial schism from Orthodox Judaism. It was under peter's own voice that set the holy Spirit out among the people. something only the Prophets of the OT experienced prior, yet from acts 2 forward everything about this religion undermines the limited capacity in which God had contact before, but somehow in 2000 years was the 'morality of the bible' questioned based on this change. (not by the church anyways.)

Quote:I would agree that there needs to be a lot more public condemnation for Islamic terrorist activities by Muslims. Islam would be easier to deal with if there was a centralized authority. I don't think that all 1.6 Billion Muslims are likely to be in favour of the murder of homosexuals, but I would be surprised if there were not many millions who are.

THERE IS A CENTRALIZED AUTHORITY!!! And despite what an individual says his personal views are there is a active and standing command to murder all Homosexuals under the laws of their god. Watch the Video in the OP This command to murder gays comes from their centralized authority!!!

(June 28, 2016 at 6:48 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 28, 2016 at 4:51 pm)Veritas_Vincit Wrote: I'm afraid you are mistaken, Jesus did expressly say all the Old Testament law still applies:


This means that when God says to Abraham that:
along with all the other ridiculous rules in that chapter, Jesus says you still have to follow them. Read the whole chapter here: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=KJV

And the problem this gives you is that if you do want to disavow the barbarism of the Old Testament, you undermine the Bible's only claim to authority, being that it is the word of God, and you undermine the notion that Christianity and the Bible are the source of Morality. So I would ask you: Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God? Is the Bible an accurate portrayal of God's character? 

I would agree that there needs to be a lot more public condemnation for Islamic terrorist activities by Muslims. Islam would be easier to deal with if there was a centralized authority. I don't think that all 1.6 Billion Muslims are likely to be in favour of the murder of homosexuals, but I would be surprised if there were not many millions who are.

This is the problem with all religions, not even Buddhism or Hindus entire history has been completely violence free or sexism free. 

I really get down on theists that others making bad claims mean we should do the same type of WW2 Germany scapegoating of entire labels. Nobody is in favor of Islamic based theocratic law. But we are also not in favor of our Christian right in the west trying to turn back the clock on human rights.

It is only western secular law that keeps the divisions to a more civil degree, not the religions themselves. There is not one religion worldwide as an umbrella label that does not have competing sub sects. The underpinnings of Christianity's former barbaric past are still based on the words in the bible.

So again, back to the OP

What does your hate for christianity have to do with giving the news media and or the government for squelching this story about the Islamic call to arms to murder gay people in the orlando area 3 weeks before the shooting occoured?

why hasn't anyone made this story public?

Are we so afraid is islam that we fear further reprisal from the 'radicalized community?' After all this will whip up the bigots into a frenzy which will trigger threats and maybe a burned koran or two.. But so what? Unless we fear this is going to 'activate' more home grown terrorists...

Which beggs the question...
How does your hate for people who oppose you lawfully have to do with looking at those who want you and people like us dead critically? Why are you shifting the blame of the ACTS of Islam to Christianity? Do you fear Islam? why then can you not condemn these acts of terror and place disgust and outrage where is should belong?

(June 28, 2016 at 7:59 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: As far I am aware Quran forbid killing for sex (and has shown it was forbidden in the past with Jews and Christian holy books as well), but instead has laid down, lashing for unlawful sex (sex outside marriage). The only exception is that I would classify "rape" as mischief/havoc in the earth, as it disturbs the peace and security of the people....so that is the only "sex" act that I see Quran justifying death penalty for.

At any rate, even if Quran was silent about this issue, and ahadith are to be followed regarding this issue in killing homosexuals who are caught doing the act, those who advocate killing don't condone taking the law in your own hands and going to a foreign country, and punishing people for committing that.  

For example, I believe fornicators should be lashed in an Islamic country. Does that mean I advocate people lashing at people in a foreign country and attacking them if four witnesses see them commit fornication.

Of course not.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages...ality.aspx
Muslims and the koran seem to disagree.. plus you also have the Imam in the OP on video calling for the deaths of homosexuals as it is their only chance at redemption.

(June 29, 2016 at 9:27 am)Drich Wrote:

(June 28, 2016 at 6:48 pm)Brian37 Wrote: This is the problem with all religions, not even Buddhism or Hindus entire history has been completely violence free or sexism free. 

I really get down on theists that others making bad claims mean we should do the same type of WW2 Germany scapegoating of entire labels. Nobody is in favor of Islamic based theocratic law. But we are also not in favor of our Christian right in the west trying to turn back the clock on human rights.

It is only western secular law that keeps the divisions to a more civil degree, not the religions themselves. There is not one religion worldwide as an umbrella label that does not have competing sub sects. The underpinnings of Christianity's former barbaric past are still based on the words in the bible.

So again, back to the OP

What does your hate for christianity have to do with giving the news media and or the government for squelching this story about the Islamic call to arms to murder gay people in the orlando area 3 weeks before the shooting occoured?

why hasn't anyone made this story public?

Are we so afraid is islam that we fear further reprisal from the 'radicalized community?' After all this will whip up the bigots into a frenzy which will trigger threats and maybe a burned koran or two.. But so what? Unless we fear this is going to 'activate' more home grown terrorists...

Which beggs the question...
How does your hate for people who oppose you lawfully have to do with looking at those who want you and people like us dead critically? Why are you shifting the blame of the ACTS of Islam to Christianity? Do you fear Islam? why then can you not condemn these acts of terror and place disgust and outrage where is should belong?

Knock it off asshole. Nobody is saying we should be "afraid" of criticizing Islam. You've been here long enough to see atheists go after the claims that both Mystic and Atlas make here. 

What we are saying is you don't get a pass either. You keep failing to taking into account TIME and geography and secular law in the west.

Your holy book is just as chalk full of justifications for religious tribalism, sexism, bigotry, homophobia and violence. The west simply has had a longer time of individuals ignoring those violent stories in favor of common law.

Christianity did not make the west civil, our species evolutionary empathy allowed more people to ignore that comic book tribalism.

Stop your poor me crap. The "hate" you see here is not about human rights, but bad ideas. We have every right to hate anyone of any religion who picks up their holy book, by any label and justifies religious bigotry or violence. Grow the fuck up Drich, nobody is saying stick all Christians in ovens. All 7 billion humans are the same species. Humans have rights, including Muslims, not their claims, nobody should be trying to protect claims as ideas. But no human should have to fear living in violence in the west regardless of the label they hold.

The Kurdish Christians murdered by ISIS are victims, you bitching because we don't play favorites makes you a crybaby, not a victim.

(June 28, 2016 at 8:56 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(June 28, 2016 at 2:33 pm)Drich Wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vev-OzHQy94

I posted this video in my Pulse thread but it seems no one wanted to talk about it over there...

This was originally reported by channel 9 which is an orlando ABC affiliate.

So maybe I'll have better luck here.

My question... Why Is this not been on the evening news? Why is no one discussing the Muslim "answer to the homosexual problem?"

Why are baptist ministers and fringe christians being quoted for commending this act when the shooter's own religious belief system supports what he did, and is being literally called to be done by one of his religious leaders just 3 weeks before this happened?

If you don't want or can't answer those questions... Answer this.. How does this video make you feel?
Do you think the government or media is withholding this story to shape how the public views Islam.. Why?

Do I detect a whole pike of butthurt that it wasn't a christian pastor calling for murder.

Why, of course I do. Dritch, you've made it amply clear that the only reason you weren't out in the street celebrating after the Orlando shooting is because a muslim did it. If it'd been a christian of the right denomination we'd not be hearing a peep from yoh on here (thougb I'm sure you'd be chhering him on on whatever abomination of a christian forum or stormfront clone you inhabit).

No believe it or not I see this as a terrorist attack on America and Americans (all except the illegals in that group) More over I see this as an attack on the place I grew up and have lived for the past 40 years. I also see this propaganda attack in that it furthers the careers, power and reach of the LGBT leadership, and I see this as a political/propaganda move to protect Islam from the shooters actions. when in fact the Islamic leadership of this area called in a man who would insight This Very action, and NO ONE seems to give a shite.

Even now in your last comment people like you blame christianity or have more disdain for christians than the people who called for these events to happen.

Minimum the Imam who came here as identified in the news story should be questioned as well as the mosque leaders who paid the man to be here. This is what the average justice minded american/person anywhere should be thinking

But, no.. You want me to be 'but hurt' because a muslum beat the christians to a mass murder terror attack..

Really?!?!? are you sooo deluded as to truly think this?

How about this.. Hows about you put down your hate for christianity just long enough and just do what is right.. maybe circulate the video in the OP around your facebook or whatever where ever till someone somewhere see it and can make a big stink about it nationally. So we can get real justice for those Americans that did die (and the illegals), and shame those who would use the deaths of the 49 to further their own careers.

(June 29, 2016 at 9:18 am)Drich Wrote: So what did Jesus say on the cross just before he died?
When he tasted the wine, he said, “It is finished.” Then he bowed his head and died.

Now back to Mat 5:18 Jesus came to 'full fill the law and in your version verse 18 says  I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it has all been done.


Which again was completed on the cross when Jesus died.

Yes the law remains as heaven and earth are here, but it has indeed changed as the law has been full filled. Which means a NT Christian (one who has received the atonement offered by Christ) is not judged by the law as a means to righteousness. Or the law is not used to 'judge the morality' of the sanctified believer. When a believer is judged it is the righteousness of Christ himself that is judged.

Or do you not understand the divide between OT Judaism and NT Christianity. If NT Christians were to follow ALL the laws and if none of them changed then we'd be OT jews. as it is our dietary, social and even moral laws all have changed. So clearly your interpretation of Mat 5 is wrong.

"It is finished" does not mean the same as "Now that I am dead everything that God said to Moses is now null and void." "It" is not specified, but in the context of him being crucified to death, it seems more likely to mean his ordeal, or his whole life.

In the sermon on the moutn, Jesus didn't say "...until I am dead." he said "...until all heaven and earth have passed."

This seems like you aren't joining the dots, you're adding extra dots to draw what you want to see. I don't buy it.

(June 29, 2016 at 9:33 am)Drich Wrote:

(June 28, 2016 at 7:59 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: As far I am aware Quran forbid killing for sex (and has shown it was forbidden in the past with Jews and Christian holy books as well), but instead has laid down, lashing for unlawful sex (sex outside marriage). The only exception is that I would classify "rape" as mischief/havoc in the earth, as it disturbs the peace and security of the people....so that is the only "sex" act that I see Quran justifying death penalty for.

At any rate, even if Quran was silent about this issue, and ahadith are to be followed regarding this issue in killing homosexuals who are caught doing the act, those who advocate killing don't condone taking the law in your own hands and going to a foreign country, and punishing people for committing that.  

For example, I believe fornicators should be lashed in an Islamic country. Does that mean I advocate people lashing at people in a foreign country and attacking them if four witnesses see them commit fornication.

Of course not.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages...ality.aspx
Muslims and the koran seem to disagree.. plus you also have the Imam in the OP on video calling for the deaths of homosexuals as it is their only chance at redemption.

Christianity is a religion of peace too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF8uN9En2dQ&app=desktop

(June 29, 2016 at 9:36 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 29, 2016 at 9:27 am)Drich Wrote: So again, back to the OP

What does your hate for christianity have to do with giving the news media and or the government for squelching this story about the Islamic call to arms to murder gay people in the orlando area 3 weeks before the shooting occoured?

why hasn't anyone made this story public?

Are we so afraid is islam that we fear further reprisal from the 'radicalized community?' After all this will whip up the bigots into a frenzy which will trigger threats and maybe a burned koran or two.. But so what? Unless we fear this is going to 'activate' more home grown terrorists...

Which beggs the question...
How does your hate for people who oppose you lawfully have to do with looking at those who want you and people like us dead critically? Why are you shifting the blame of the ACTS of Islam to Christianity? Do you fear Islam? why then can you not condemn these acts of terror and place disgust and outrage where is should belong?

Knock it off asshole. Nobody is saying we should be "afraid" of criticizing Islam. You've been here long enough to see atheists go after the claims that both Mystic and Atlas make here. 

What we are saying is you don't get a pass either. You keep failing to taking into account TIME and geography and secular law in the west.

Your holy book is just as chalk full of justifications for religious tribalism, sexism, bigotry, homophobia and violence. The west simply has had a longer time of individuals ignoring those violent stories in favor of common law.

Christianity did not make the west civil, our species evolutionary empathy allowed more people to ignore that comic book tribalism.

If you are not afraid to criticize Islam, then where is the criticism? I show you a news report from this area where it clearly explains a local Mosque invited a Imam to call for the deaths of homosexuals 3 weeks before this thing happened..

Again, would your current nonchalant attitude towards a religious leader be the same if he were a bishop from the RC church and the shooter a roman Catholic?

(June 29, 2016 at 10:24 am)Drich Wrote:

(June 29, 2016 at 9:36 am)Brian37 Wrote: Knock it off asshole. Nobody is saying we should be "afraid" of criticizing Islam. You've been here long enough to see atheists go after the claims that both Mystic and Atlas make here. 

What we are saying is you don't get a pass either. You keep failing to taking into account TIME and geography and secular law in the west.

Your holy book is just as chalk full of justifications for religious tribalism, sexism, bigotry, homophobia and violence. The west simply has had a longer time of individuals ignoring those violent stories in favor of common law.

Christianity did not make the west civil, our species evolutionary empathy allowed more people to ignore that comic book tribalism.

If you are not afraid to criticize Islam, then where is the criticism? I show you a news report from this area where it clearly explains a local Mosque invited a Imam to call for the deaths of homosexuals 3 weeks before this thing happened..

Again, would your current nonchalant attitude towards a religious leader be the same if he were a bishop from the RC church and the shooter a roman Catholic?

What is your evidence that the shooter carried out the shooting due to what the imam said?

If a Christian were to shoot up a nightclub full of homosexuals and someone linked you to one of the many sermons Christian pastors have made calling for the death of homosexuals, you would be singing a completely different tune, I have no doubt.

Never mind. I already know how you're going to answer.