(July 25, 2016 at 12:01 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Isn't the bible supposed to be The Lord's Word; his inerrant instructions on how to live correctly?  The most perfect, yet unattainable moral standard?  If yes, why would the Jews be living in a patriarchy in first place?  Why should they have ever NEEDED such a cruel and torturous legal punishment as stoning a 13 year old to death, regardless of whether or not it was only in place as a deterrent?

It's simple: that's not what god values.

Any comprehensive reading of the bible suggests that god wants people scared and stratified and fighting each other, with both the upper and under classes both forced on bended knee to be beneath him. It's why the Tower of Babel story is one of god striking down an unprecedented display of cooperation and human ingenuity, and magicking them so that not only could they never do it again, but they have one more difference to cause conflict between tribes. It's why even the smallest spark of curiosity from Lot's wife was met with immediate, lethal retribution. It's why Jesus "came to bring a sword": god wants small, bloody, up close and personal conflict between distrustful bands of dead-eyed, righteously angry barbarians, not equitable communities striving together toward prosperity.

I mean, do you think it's a coincidence that the antichrist is often presented as a figure bringing unity and peace, but that his teachings will be counter to god's will?

(July 25, 2016 at 12:06 pm)Rhythm Wrote: When christians say that, they just mean that they think god loves -them-. Sure, sure...god could love you too...provided that you become one of -them-. After all, the universe was created for -them-, and a jew was strung up for -them-.

Me, me, me, me me...all day with those fuckers.

That might be why referencing the suffering of others, or..really anything about others (beliefs, opinions, criticisms) doesn't hit home...with -them-.

VIP, baby! The Jews probably got into all the hottest clubs. No wonder Christians have special snowflake syndrome. What else can a person think when their God says, "see all that land over there where those nice people are living? It's yours now, because you guys are my super favorites. Let's go kill them all and take it!"

That's a really interesting narrative in context...because god could have, ostensibly, created some space for the jews -poof- like magic.  After all, he did it before.  Or he could have made some barren place bloom for them, after all...he did it before.  He chooses, instead...to "give" something that must be taken from a people who must be murdered, based on what I can only assume to be the covetous desires of his little clique.  What -they- would look for in a land.

Now, obviously I think it's all horseshit....but I do think that the faithful have greatly misread the character of their god.

(July 25, 2016 at 11:18 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: So, I've been debating a Christian on another site (not an atheist site, but the topic of religion come up and I just couldn't help myself [emoji6]) regarding those verses in Deuteronomy that detail stoning your rebellious child to death.  

I don't understand the apologist rebuttal to the above mentioned verses (and so many others like it in the OT):  'you have to understand the Hebrew culture back then.  If you understand their culture, you'll see it's not really as bad as it sounds.'

Let's consider a couple definitions of "culture":

1. The beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time.

2.  A particular society that has its own beliefs, ways of life, art, etc

It's textually pretty straight forward that the beliefs and customs of the Jews' culture were quite literally commanded upon them through a series of direct orders from God himself.  All laws governing right from wrong, even the most mundane details of day-to-day living (like which animals were clean to eat, and which types of garments were okay to wear) were handed down to the Jews DIRECTLY from God, through Moses.  God goes so far as to impose a punishment of death onto those who dare disobey His theocratic governing rules.  'You'd better worship me, and only me, or I will kill you.  You better follow these rules, or I will kill you.  You'd better live this particular way, and do these particular things, or I will kill you.'  

He could have sent his special folks forward into the world to live amongst others with the most perfectly empathetic and humanistic ideals.  He could have commanded Mosaic laws such as:

1. Don't murder other people for their land and property

2. Woman are autonomous humans and shall be treated as such

3. Don't ever enslave another human being

3.  Under no circumstances is a child is to be put to death as criminal punishment

So, we are going to point the finger at the Israelites' marginally civilized, and aggressive Patriarchal culture as the reason for needing such harsh deterrents in place like stoning your kids to death, then we MUST also point the finger at a marginally civilized and aggressive God for cultivating his people's culture that way in the first place!

Christians are left with two explanations that I can see:  either Jewish culture was barbaric because Yahweh was barbaric (and not omnibenevolent) or Yahweh wasn't powerful enough to set forth a more civilized group of people (and not omnipotent).  

[emoji848]

(Oh, and of course, obvious option number three that no Christian will ever select:  the bible is not actually god's word.  [emoji6])

...and why wouldn't it be God word? because it does not conform to what is secularly right and wrong?

What many Christians don't seem to understand is that you can't have your cake and eat it. If you're going to excuse the worse verses in the bible by appealing to mundane reasons such as cultural context and historical accident, then there's no justifiable way to then turn around and say, well, God was supernatural, the bible is his word and we should listen to it.

Religion is either the product of human intellect or it isn't. Take a position and stand by it, don't fluctuate between the two, unless there's a good reason to do so, and there isn't, as far as I can tell.

(July 26, 2016 at 8:24 am)Drich Wrote:

(July 25, 2016 at 11:18 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: So, I've been debating a Christian on another site (not an atheist site, but the topic of religion come up and I just couldn't help myself [emoji6]) regarding those verses in Deuteronomy that detail stoning your rebellious child to death.  

I don't understand the apologist rebuttal to the above mentioned verses (and so many others like it in the OT):  'you have to understand the Hebrew culture back then.  If you understand their culture, you'll see it's not really as bad as it sounds.'

Let's consider a couple definitions of "culture":

1. The beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time.

2.  A particular society that has its own beliefs, ways of life, art, etc

It's textually pretty straight forward that the beliefs and customs of the Jews' culture were quite literally commanded upon them through a series of direct orders from God himself.  All laws governing right from wrong, even the most mundane details of day-to-day living (like which animals were clean to eat, and which types of garments were okay to wear) were handed down to the Jews DIRECTLY from God, through Moses.  God goes so far as to impose a punishment of death onto those who dare disobey His theocratic governing rules.  'You'd better worship me, and only me, or I will kill you.  You better follow these rules, or I will kill you.  You'd better live this particular way, and do these particular things, or I will kill you.'  

He could have sent his special folks forward into the world to live amongst others with the most perfectly empathetic and humanistic ideals.  He could have commanded Mosaic laws such as:

1. Don't murder other people for their land and property

2. Woman are autonomous humans and shall be treated as such

3. Don't ever enslave another human being

3.  Under no circumstances is a child is to be put to death as criminal punishment

So, we are going to point the finger at the Israelites' marginally civilized, and aggressive Patriarchal culture as the reason for needing such harsh deterrents in place like stoning your kids to death, then we MUST also point the finger at a marginally civilized and aggressive God for cultivating his people's culture that way in the first place!

Christians are left with two explanations that I can see:  either Jewish culture was barbaric because Yahweh was barbaric (and not omnibenevolent) or Yahweh wasn't powerful enough to set forth a more civilized group of people (and not omnipotent).  

[emoji848]

(Oh, and of course, obvious option number three that no Christian will ever select:  the bible is not actually god's word.  [emoji6])

...and why wouldn't it be God word? because it does not conform to what is secularly right and wrong?

Um...well, yes. What kind of "good" god is cool with humans stripping other humans' of their right to live as autonomous beings? I mean...I don't understand how such a thing could even be up for debate. Actually, coming from YOU, I can see how it would be up for debate...

I don't get what God was doing in all the intervening time, to allow society to get so utterly fucked. How did it stray so badly? Why didn't he do anything? He let it get so bad that he had to regulate slavery instead of abolishing it, because... even God can't alter how a society works?

(July 26, 2016 at 12:10 pm)robvalue Wrote: I don't get what God was doing in all the intervening time, to allow society to get so utterly fucked. How did it stray so badly? Why didn't he do anything? He let it get so bad that he had to regulate slavery instead of abolishing it, because... even God can't alter how a society works?

I know, Rob, but God works in mysterious ways, what can we do? I can only hope he'll save us from damnation in the end.

(July 26, 2016 at 11:33 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(July 26, 2016 at 8:24 am)Drich Wrote: ...and why wouldn't it be God word? because it does not conform to what is secularly right and wrong?

Um...well, yes.  What kind of "good" god is cool with humans stripping other humans' of their right to live as autonomous beings?  I mean...I don't understand how such a thing could even be up for debate.  Actually, coming from YOU, I can see how it would be up for debate...

You're about to be embroiled in a debate, where Drich would rather play word games about "right and wrong," while defining whatever his god says into a special category, "righteous" where it's just the best thing no matter what, by definitional fiat. It's the whole reason that second question is tacked onto his response to you at all, I suspect.

(July 26, 2016 at 1:00 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(July 26, 2016 at 11:33 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Um...well, yes.  What kind of "good" god is cool with humans stripping other humans' of their right to live as autonomous beings?  I mean...I don't understand how such a thing could even be up for debate.  Actually, coming from YOU, I can see how it would be up for debate...

You're about to be embroiled in a debate, where Drich would rather play word games about "right and wrong," while defining whatever his god says into a special category, "righteous" where it's just the best thing no matter what, by definitional fiat. It's the whole reason that second question is tacked onto his response to you at all, I suspect.

*sigh* Yeah, I'm seeing "pop morality" coming at me like a nightmare I can't prevent or wake up from...