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Quote:Is it that they just don't really believe it, or is it that they are entirely devoid of human emotions ?
Nah, you probably did something else to piss him off. "Jesus" is a weapon to some people. They trot out their fairy godfather when it suits them.
I completely agree with this. It could simply be your atheism that pisses him off or something you said. Either way, he wouldn't tell you you were going to hell if he wasn't pissed about something. Could just be he doesn't like it when people don't agree with him. I have a fundie aunt and uncle who, believe it or not, are the sweetest, least judgmental people I know. I have never once heard I am going to hell from them and we have religious conversations all the time.
May 5, 2011 at 11:39 pm (This post was last modified: May 5, 2011 at 11:40 pm by Oldandeasilyconfused.)
Quote:I simply don't get it...i mean Christians are always the first to talk about pity, and love, and acceptance...How can any Christian not go completely mentally insane about the idea that most people they see every day are going to burn forever in agonizing pain...the guy you pass on the bus, the co-worker who you talk about sports with...
I don't see how anyone can stay sane with that kind of fatality that the idea of Hell implies...
How can you be okay with anyone not sharing your beliefs ? How can you have someone you love not believing in God and not do every single thing you can to convert them ?
Is it that they just don't really believe it, or is it that they are entirely devoid of human emotions ?
Argument from incredulity. What you understand is irrelevant.So too is your personal world view and values. It's not up to you or anyone else to tell others what they should think or believe.
It is a common conceit (and ad homimen attack) by many atheists that believers in X Y or Z are stupid ,ignorant or insane. In my opinion,such a position is no more than a sneaky form of smug bigotry.
May 5, 2011 at 11:57 pm (This post was last modified: May 6, 2011 at 2:43 am by ib.me.ub.)
(May 5, 2011 at 6:19 pm)Rwandrall Wrote: First, this post may be a bit emotional since i'm a bit shaken up, my brother, who i am really close with and who is not a fundie by any stretch of the imagination (he rarely even goes to Church) told me that i will be going to Hell when i die, and that i deserved it for being an atheist.
Sound as if your brother got angry and lashed out. Probably better not to talk about religion with your family members.
(May 5, 2011 at 7:57 pm)TrueSpirit Wrote: I'm brand new to this forum, and I don't personally know any atheists. I was just curious, if you don't believe in a God, what, do atheists believe in?
More than likely everthing you beleive in apart from the devil, god, ghosts, afterlife, fairies, the easter bunny & batman. Give or take a few.
Most importantly, we beleive in Science.
Rwandrall Wrote:Is it that they just don't really believe it, or is it that they are entirely devoid of human emotions ?
Anger does strange things too people. I was playing an online game the other day and killed a particular person a few times in a row. He turned around a said, in open chat, that he was going to pray for my family to die, apart from other things. Humans can be devoid of humanity when it suits them.
May 6, 2011 at 2:13 am (This post was last modified: May 6, 2011 at 2:36 am by Cinjin.)
(May 5, 2011 at 7:53 pm)Watson Wrote: On what do you base this notion of Christians, Cinjin? Did you yourself experience these feelings of superiority towards others when you were a Christian, and you told someone else they were going to Hell?
A fair question ... which is rare to get from religious people. But it does occassionally happen.
My answer. Yes, I felt superior, but not in the way an adult would feel. I never made it to adulthood as a christian. But I definitely remember my entire family including myself "looking down" on the guy on the corner with a cigarette in his mouth and hearing my father say things like "those people are going to suffer for their pride" as we walked away from a house we just tried to witness to.
This was a common line of thinking in the fundies church. Of course, no one came out and said, "we're better than everybody else", but the idea was there and even as a child I picked up on it on the superior attitude of "the flock".
To this day, if I walk into my father's fundimentalist baptist church (which happens once every 4 years or so) I will get the condescending remarks and the looks of disapproval. Just because something isn't spoken doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Anybody who's married knows this.
It's real, and it's ignorant to pretend it doesn't exist even if you yourself do not feel that way.
(May 5, 2011 at 8:22 pm)TrueSpirit Wrote: I don't understand why you said that Christianity, Heaven and hell are pathetic though, because I feel they are all real, they're just not what most orthodox religions say, or believe they are. Could you expand on that?
When I refer to heaven and hell, I am always referring to the christian versions of heaven and hell. Thus when I say there is no Heaven and there is no Hell, I am not implying that there is no afterlife. I of course do not pretend to know what death brings, but I'm pretty fuckin sure that no one is going to be walking on streets of gold and receiving crowns of gold and gems to lay at Jesus' feet. What the fuck do you need gold in heaven for anyway? Why would god need to put a shiny yellow metal up in heaven for? Is there a banking system up there? Can we use the gold to buy better wings????? It's an antiquated idea made up by men to entice the masses who lived in a time when 99% of the world was poverty stricken. It's ridiculous and its pathetic.
As for hell - just visit the thread I started called, "I Love You Enough to Burn You" and that will answer why I think hell is such a stupid pathetic idea as well.
There's more, but thats the general gist.
(May 5, 2011 at 7:19 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:
(May 5, 2011 at 7:16 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: I remember when I was christian that less than 1% of my requestes to god were ever answered
And should 100% of your prayers have been answered (affirmatively presumably)?
According to your bible - yes. I will refer you to some verses.
Matthew 21:21-22
Matthew 7:7-8
Mark 11:24-25
Luke 11:9-13
John 14:13-14
John 16:23-24
...and my personal favorite, John 15:7, If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.
So yes, Frodo, I was a believer at the time. I expect 100% because that's what was promised.
HELL, I would've settled for 20% and considered myself gods #1 fuckin favorite of all time!
(May 5, 2011 at 11:39 pm)padraic Wrote: Argument from incredulity. What you understand is irrelevant.So too is your personal world view and values. It's not up to you or anyone else to tell others what they should think or believe.
It is a common conceit (and ad homimen attack) by many atheists that believers in X Y or Z are stupid ,ignorant or insane. In my opinion,such a position is no more than a sneaky form of smug bigotry.
First, what i understand is not irrelevant, since Hell is not that complicated a notion...Hell implies that, for example, all Muslims, according to Christians, WILL go to Hell forever. Why would any Christian not do whatever they could to convert them ? how can one have a Muslim friend and not try everything they can to spare them from Hell ? Is it that they don't want to hurt their feelings or cause an argument ? If so, how serious do they think Hell is ?
I don't think they are insane, but i do think they are ignorant of their religion in the sense that many believers i talk to think everyone who was a "good person" will go to Heaven regardless of the "path" they took to go there. Which is quite a good, reasonable line of thinking.
However none of the major religions actually even remotely support that line of thinking. So in my view, they ARE ignorant of their religion. Which is fine, i'm ignorant about an infinite myriad of subjects, so i wouldn't hold it against them, religion just isn't important to many people in their daily lives. Saying most Christians don't know what's in the Bible is not an ad hominem, it's a statistical fact, considering Church attendance for catholics in my home country is at around 7%...
But to those who actually know what their religion says, their only explanation seems to be "you always have a choice", i guess in the hope that the Holy Spirit will take care of it. But considering the number of people who die Muslims, Atheists or Jews, that Ghost is not taking its job so seriously. Potentially, everyone CAN be saved. But in reality, most are definitely not.
To all, my brother did not "lash out", it was a simple conversation, not even a debate, i joked about going to Hell and being a "heretic", and he just said that yeah, i deserved it. It was not out of anger: it was a casual comment, this is just what he thinks will happen. Otherwise i wouldn't have minded it.
May 6, 2011 at 3:46 am (This post was last modified: May 6, 2011 at 4:03 am by Godscreated.)
(May 6, 2011 at 2:13 am)Cinjin Cain Wrote:
(May 5, 2011 at 7:53 pm)Watson Wrote: On what do you base this notion of Christians, Cinjin? Did you yourself experience these feelings of superiority towards others when you were a Christian, and you told someone else they were going to Hell?
A fair question ... which is rare to get from religious people. But it does occassionally happen.
My answer. Yes, I felt superior, but not in the way an adult would feel. I never made it to adulthood as a christian. But I definitely remember my entire family including myself "looking down" on the guy on the corner with a cigarette in his mouth and hearing my father say things like "those people are going to suffer for their pride" as we walked away from a house we just tried to witness to.
This was a common line of thinking in the fundies church. Of course, no one came out and said, "we're better than everybody else", but the idea was there and even as a child I picked up on it on the superior attitude of "the flock".
To this day, if I walk into my father's fundimentalist baptist church (which happens once every 4 years or so) I will get the condescending remarks and the looks of disapproval. Just because something isn't spoken doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Anybody who's married knows this.
It's real, and it's ignorant to pretend it doesn't exist even if you yourself do not feel that way.
(May 5, 2011 at 8:22 pm)TrueSpirit Wrote: I don't understand why you said that Christianity, Heaven and hell are pathetic though, because I feel they are all real, they're just not what most orthodox religions say, or believe they are. Could you expand on that?
When I refer to heaven and hell, I am always referring to the christian versions of heaven and hell. Thus when I say there is no Heaven and there is no Hell, I am not implying that there is no afterlife. I of course do not pretend to know what death brings, but I'm pretty fuckin sure that no one is going to be walking on streets of gold and receiving crowns of gold and gems to lay at Jesus' feet. What the fuck do you need gold in heaven for anyway? Why would god need to put a shiny yellow metal up in heaven for? Is there a banking system up there? Can we use the gold to buy better wings????? It's an antiquated idea made up by men to entice the masses who lived in a time when 99% of the world was poverty stricken. It's ridiculous and its pathetic.
As for hell - just visit the thread I started called, "I Love You Enough to Burn You" and that will answer why I think hell is such a stupid pathetic idea as well.
There's more, but thats the general gist.
If there was no gold in Heaven then what would they pave the streets with. Gold in itself will have no value in heaven, to exist forever with the living God is real value, I know you can not understand this or you would not have given up your salvation.
As for hell - there has to be a place for those who reject Christ and if you could take a stroll through hell you would understand why faith is more valuable than anything else.
(May 5, 2011 at 7:19 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:
(May 5, 2011 at 7:16 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: I remember when I was christian that less than 1% of my requestes to god were ever answered
And should 100% of your prayers have been answered (affirmatively presumably)?
According to your bible - yes. I will refer you to some verses.
Matthew 21:21-22
Matthew 7:7-8
Mark 11:24-25
Luke 11:9-13
John 14:13-14
John 16:23-24
...and my personal favorite, John 15:7, If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.
So yes, Frodo, I was a believer at the time. I expect 100% because that's what was promised.
HELL, I would've settled for 20% and considered myself gods #1 fuckin favorite of all time!
Your faith must have be shallow and your understanding of scripture limited because when Jesus was talking about answered prayer He was saying that your prayer would have to be within the will of God to be answered. Praying for gain outside of spiritual matters very seldom results in a positive answer, I know you did not say what you were praying for but most people want to know why they did not receive the stuff they prayed for. Prayer is meant for a relationship with God, one that is spiritual not material or physical. Prayer is a way given to us to grow closer to God.
(May 6, 2011 at 3:28 am)Rwandrall Wrote:
(May 5, 2011 at 11:39 pm)padraic Wrote: Argument from incredulity. What you understand is irrelevant.So too is your personal world view and values. It's not up to you or anyone else to tell others what they should think or believe.
It is a common conceit (and ad homimen attack) by many atheists that believers in X Y or Z are stupid ,ignorant or insane. In my opinion,such a position is no more than a sneaky form of smug bigotry.
First, what i understand is not irrelevant, since Hell is not that complicated a notion...Hell implies that, for example, all Muslims, according to Christians, WILL go to Hell forever. Why would any Christian not do whatever they could to convert them ? how can one have a Muslim friend and not try everything they can to spare them from Hell ? Is it that they don't want to hurt their feelings or cause an argument ? If so, how serious do they think Hell is ?
I don't think they are insane, but i do think they are ignorant of their religion in the sense that many believers i talk to think everyone who was a "good person" will go to Heaven regardless of the "path" they took to go there. Which is quite a good, reasonable line of thinking.
However none of the major religions actually even remotely support that line of thinking. So in my view, they ARE ignorant of their religion. Which is fine, i'm ignorant about an infinite myriad of subjects, so i wouldn't hold it against them, religion just isn't important to many people in their daily lives. Saying most Christians don't know what's in the Bible is not an ad hominem, it's a statistical fact, considering Church attendance for catholics in my home country is at around 7%...
But to those who actually know what their religion says, their only explanation seems to be "you always have a choice", i guess in the hope that the Holy Spirit will take care of it. But considering the number of people who die Muslims, Atheists or Jews, that Ghost is not taking its job so seriously. Potentially, everyone CAN be saved. But in reality, most are definitely not.
To all, my brother did not "lash out", it was a simple conversation, not even a debate, i joked about going to Hell and being a "heretic", and he just said that yeah, i deserved it. It was not out of anger: it was a casual comment, this is just what he thinks will happen. Otherwise i wouldn't have minded it.
You are pretty much correct in what you said, here's the reason most christians do not try to help people to convert to christianity, we are always accused of being pushy or telling others they need to believe what we do and others say that we need to keep our religion to ourselves. Some times remarks like those can come back to bite. So if you want to see more christians wittnessing then lighten up.
My brother want even have a conversation about God, when God is mentioned when he's around, he's off and gone. I would cherish the chance to tell him about Christ if he would just listen. Maybe your brother feels the same way and said what he did to get you thinking and just maybe he did!
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(May 6, 2011 at 3:46 am)Godschild Wrote: Your faith must have be shallow and your understanding of scripture limited because when Jesus was talking about answered prayer He was saying that your prayer would have to be within the will of God to be answered. Praying for gain outside of spiritual matters very seldom results in a positive answer, I know you did not say what you were praying for but most people want to know why they did not receive the stuff they prayed for. Prayer is meant for a relationship with God, one that is spiritual not material or physical. Prayer is a way given to us to grow closer to God.
Firstly, I wasn't addressing you. Secondly, you can't pretend to know what I was praying for when I was 9 years old. Thirdly, your bible does NOT preface or put a disclaimer on what you're allowed to ask for. It makes a statement of "fact". Fourthly, a one sided conversation does not make anyone closer to anything - let alone the most powerful force in the universe. Fifthly, do you think it was selfish of me to ask god for school clothes and shoes?!?!
If I was locked in a room with Hussein, Bin Laden and You and I had a pistol with only two bullets ... I'd shoot you TWICE!!
(May 6, 2011 at 3:46 am)Godschild Wrote: You are pretty much correct in what you said, here's the reason most christians do not try to help people to convert to christianity, we are always accused of being pushy or telling others they need to believe what we do and others say that we need to keep our religion to ourselves. Some times remarks like those can come back to bite. So if you want to see more christians wittnessing then lighten up.
My brother want even have a conversation about God, when God is mentioned when he's around, he's off and gone. I would cherish the chance to tell him about Christ if he would just listen. Maybe your brother feels the same way and said what he did to get you thinking and just maybe he did!
The problem is that secularism and the acceptance of other faiths cannot comply with Christianity, only because of this notion of Hell...this is really too bad. Because of that idea that one's faith is the only true one, there can simply never be peace between religions. It is logically impossible. I see no way out as long as those religions hold those beliefs.
I think Evangelical Christians ARE being pushy, but i can't just say "it's okay because that's what their religion tells them". When someone does something objectionable (in my subjective view) in the name of religion i can disagree with them. But on the other hand, only that way do they seem sincere in their will to help others escape Hell. It's a paradox, really, but a paradox that is self-inflicted.
If a terrorist (to use an extreme example, i'll never equate distributing bibles to killing innocents) says that he has to do the killing because that is what the religion says and only that way can they truly be sincere in their beliefs...i can't just say "fair enough". On the contrary, i would say that the religion itself has a problem if it requires engaging in objectionable behavior.
_______________________________________________________
@Cinjin, that's a bit unfair, since two of those people are already dead
(May 5, 2011 at 7:57 pm)TrueSpirit Wrote: I'm brand new to this forum, and I don't personally know any atheists. I was just curious, if you don't believe in a God, what, do atheists believe in?
Truespirit atheism is not a religion. We don't all believe the same thing.
The only thing atheists have in common is the LACK OF BELIEF in a god. Maybe you should look up what an atheist actually is? : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
I've met plenty of atheists on this forum, but i don't agree with them all. We all have our own individual conclusions and explanations about the world we live in. Thats the difference between atheists and religions, religious people have it all laid out for them, they claim to 'know' exactly what the world is all about.
Atheists merely disregard a 'god' as one of the possibilities mainly because of the basis that there is no evidence whatsoever for it to exist.
CC you misinterpret the Bible badly and you attribute people acting contrary to Christian principles with acting like Christ. This is wishful thinking in the extreme. Carry on but please don't delude yourself that you have any valid points.
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