(May 5, 2011 at 8:21 pm)Interzone Wrote:

(April 28, 2011 at 11:03 am)Zen Badger Wrote: The fact is, we have evolved as omnivores and we require meat as well as vegetables.

They seem to have this idea that in nature animals live in some sort of happy co-existance where no really gets hurt.

One suspects they've watched "Bambi" one too many times.

It's an ethical choice, simple as that. Noone's denying that we're omnivores and that there's a great deal of cruelty in the wild, but that argument simply isn't comparing like with like.

We are animals, after all, and I personally think that we have a moral obligation to minimize the suffering done to our fellow creatures, no matter how lowly they are. As long as they suffer, I think it's wrong to turn a blind eye. I'm sure a philosopher like Shelly Kagan can be more eloquent about it, but it's a simple and fair ethical stance. Comparing it to a religion is rather insulting, especially when coherent arguments can be made by both sides, and I fucking hate it when people think veganism for moral reasons is some form of "extremism."

Could you please clarify whether you are against eating meat or cruelty to animals.(there is a difference)

If it is the latter then I agree with you, there is no need for animals to suffer in domestication or when they are slaughtered.
I take no pleasure in the death of an animal and I don't kill for sport.

But having said that I have no problem killing to eat. But I would make it quick and painless.

Something I might add that a animal in the wild would not grant. A lion does not care if the antelope it has just killed has suffered or not, and would not understand the concept if you tried to explain it.

But I like meat and I feel no guilt in eating it.

Just remember that all that is born is destined to die(usually in pain and suffering) and all life will be eaten by other life.

Quote:Read up on it. Hitler would have made a fine PETA leader.

No, not really. Albert Speer recounted in Inside the Third Reich that Hitler would have his meals prepared by a vegetarian chef but his other guests were served a normal meal. Speer added that Hitler would sometimes chide his guests for being "carrion eaters" but he was far less judgmental than these PETA assholes....or xtian assholes.

(May 6, 2011 at 10:39 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Read up on it. Hitler would have made a fine PETA leader.

No, not really. Albert Speer recounted in Inside the Third Reich that Hitler would have his meals prepared by a vegetarian chef but his other guests were served a normal meal. Speer added that Hitler would sometimes chide his guests for being "carrion eaters" but he was far less judgmental than these PETA assholes....or xtian assholes.

Hmmm...good point. I didnt read anywhere saying Adolph would have charged meat eaters with MURDER ..like the freaks at PETA would like legislated against our majority will.

mmm..Im eating new york strip medium rare. I was going to wait until tomorrow, but that video got me wanting steak today.

(May 6, 2011 at 1:16 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote:

(May 6, 2011 at 10:39 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Read up on it. Hitler would have made a fine PETA leader.

No, not really. Albert Speer recounted in Inside the Third Reich that Hitler would have his meals prepared by a vegetarian chef but his other guests were served a normal meal. Speer added that Hitler would sometimes chide his guests for being "carrion eaters" but he was far less judgmental than these PETA assholes....or xtian assholes.

Hmmm...good point. I didnt read anywhere saying Adolph would have charged meat eaters with MURDER ..like the freaks at PETA would like legislated against our majority will.

Yeah....and let's face it. It takes a lot to be a bigger asshole than Hitler.

Quote:[video=youtube][video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ki57eFs7XFo[/video]

You know, I will admit that this is pretty fucked up. :/

Quote:P.S> Hitler was vegetarian. Hitler believed that a vegetarian diet could both alleviate personal health problems and bring about a spiritual regeneration.

So what if he was? You're merely reiterating my point, which was that your were making the very simple association fallacy, and you know that. Again, it's the exact same thing if I said all Atheists are Nazis, and that all Vegans are Religious/Extremists. Obviously, NOT TRUE. Dangling a red herring only makes you look like a fool.

I don't think you've even attempted a single, logical argument in this entire thread.

Quote:I say again, go back and read my first posts. I have no beef with individual vegetarians who do not evangelize. PETA are the religious freaks.

Good, but you DID equate VEGANISM (and NOT PETA) with religion in the thread title. I am not putting words in your mouth, now, am I? Now, when I defended VEGANISM, your reply was this

Quote:It is very much like a religion, as there is no grounds to ban eating meat, but that is what PETA wants to do.

A rather nasty way of doing business, no? Somehow, you infer PETA and "bans" from my complaints against animal cruelty and veganism. Nice little trick you pulled.

Quote:If you try to legislate what goes on my dinner plate..then me and you are going to have a SERIOUS talk, and it may get awfully physical.

Again, did I ever bring this up?

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Quote:Could you please clarify whether you are against eating meat or cruelty to animals.(there is a difference)

They inevitably go hand in hand. As I said before, I am NOT against eating meat for meat's sake. However, it is a fact that virtually all processed meat comes from animal farms, in which creatures suffer enormously. That is my complaint.

Quote:But having said that I have no problem killing to eat. But I would make it quick and painless.

I would argue that "humane" means more than just a quick and painless death. Quality of life is, I think, of great importance. Animals shouldn't be mistreated during life, and shouldn't live in filthy, cramped cages.

Quote:Something I might add that a animal in the wild would not grant. A lion does not care if the antelope it has just killed has suffered or not, and would not understand the concept if you tried to explain it.

I'm a utilitarian, and my overriding philosophy is to do as little harm as possible, while doing as much good as possible. Simple as that. I cannot possibly fault a lion for being inhumane. As you clearly pointed out, lions are not capable of the concept. However, WE are, which is the difference I try to emphasize in these discussions.

Quote:But I like meat and I feel no guilt in eating it.

Well, I won't object to that. As I said, though, I would appreciate it if people at least give the idea some thought. And some amount of respect for Vegans would be nice. We're not freaks, you know (well, most of us aren't.)

Zone Wrote:So what if he was? You're merely reiterating my point, which was that your were making the very simple association fallacy, and you know that. Again, it's the exact same thing if I said all Atheists are Nazis, and that all Vegans are Religious/Extremists. Obviously, NOT TRUE. Dangling a red herring only makes you look like a fool.

No, the biggest fallacy is thinking that anything we discuss on this forum actually makes any difference in the world. If you think this forum is any more than just the opinions of different people, or that this is more than just chit chat, then I dont know how to answer you.

Might I remind you that you godwin'd first, not me. Not that it really matters. If you dont like what I have to say, then post your opinion. I am not going to fool myself thinking that any conversation on this forum will make any difference to anyone on here.

zone Wrote:Good, but you DID equate VEGANISM (and NOT PETA) with religion in the thread title. I am not putting words in your mouth, now, am I? Now, when I defended VEGANISM, your reply was this

I specifically said I have no beef with VEGETARIANS. The topic is VEGANISM. They are two different things according to modern definitions:

-Vegetarianism encompasses the practice of following plant-based diets (fruits, vegetables, etc.), with or without the inclusion of dairy products or eggs, and with the exclusion of meat (red meat, poultry, and seafood). Abstention from by-products of animal slaughter, such as animal-derived rennet and gelatin, may also be practiced.

-Veganism is the practice of eliminating the use by human beings of non-human animal products. Ethical vegans reject the commodity status of animals and the use of animal products for any purpose, while dietary vegans or strict vegetarians eliminate them from their diet only

Therefore, I dont mind vegetarians, and I dispise Vegans and consider them extremists that mimic a religion. In other words my wording is intact and precise. PETA is slam full of VEGANS who want to force their agenda on the rest of us.

I stand by my topic name

zone Wrote:Again, did I ever bring this up?

Nope..I was merely pointing out my opinion.

Quote:No, the biggest fallacy is thinking that anything we discuss on this forum actually makes any difference in the world. If you think this forum is any more than just the opinions of different people, or that this is more than just chit chat, then I dont know how to answer you.

Great, and I pointed out the flaws in your logic. If we're having a discussion and airing opinions, then we're doing so. What's your point? What is my "fallacy" here again?

Quote:I specifically said I have no beef with VEGETARIANS. The topic is VEGANISM. They are two different things according to modern definitions:

Veganism is the practice of eliminating the use by human beings of non-human animal products. Ethical vegans reject the commodity status of animals and the use of animal products for any purpose, while dietary vegans or strict vegetarians eliminate them from their diet only

You're dense, aren't you. I know the topic was veganism, and I made arguments why veganism is both ethically and philosophically acceptable. You, on the other hand, haven't made any argument that's even remotely coherent, except ramble about out how PETA wants to govern your life. I'm not the one straying all over the place here.

Quote:Therefore, I dont mind vegetarians, and I dispise Vegans and consider them extremists that mimic a religion. In other words my wording is intact and precise. PETA is slam full of VEGANS who want to force their agenda on the rest of us.

Therefore, I don't mind agnostics, and I despise atheists and consider them extremists that mimic a religion. Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia were "slam full of ATHEISTS" who wanted to force their agenda on the rest of us. See, I can play this silly game too.