Oh .. mh.B, got it.

(September 21, 2016 at 10:40 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(September 21, 2016 at 10:38 am)Whateverist Wrote: Who is MH?

OP - mh.brewer

Yes. And I really do like MH a lot. He is someone I consider a friend and has been very kind and supportive of me. I don't mean for this to be throwing shade at him in the least bit.

(September 20, 2016 at 11:19 am)mh.brewer Wrote:

(September 20, 2016 at 9:48 am)Drich Wrote: ... and if one does not fear those things? Do you assume that their can be no other motivation?

I don't fear any of those things, and never considered any of them to ever be a motivating factor for what I believe. Truthfully there is only one Denomination that depends heavily on fear, and if you are not taught to fear few do. Rather We are all designed for a purpose and to find and full fill that purpose far outweighs any fear based motivation. Now some think they have found their purpose in work, family, the accumulation of things, or in substance abuse/drugs etc... But truthfully, nothing compares to playing out the role God has set up for you. There is a completeness and a sense of contentment In finding God and knowing beyond all doubt that he is with you in your day to day.

I do not follow God because I fear hell or being alone. I follow because I am made whole, and simply do not want to be 1/2 of what I am with Him.

Fear that you can't be your own guiding force. Fear that you can't be happy on your own. Fear of not having a leader.

But, I was on my own for more than 1/2 my life. I didn't fear it. I just found myself being happier not on my own. when I was on my own I set out to accumulate everything i wanted and got most of it. However after I got what i wanted i found it was never enough. I always wanted more had to have the I phone 7, and when I got it I wanted to know when the 7s was going to be released. I was never content, never happy. While one has to have some what of a strong driving for to cut his own path in life, I (with God) simply know a contentment I never knew before. I know level of joy and happiness that I did not think was possible. Not that I did not experience these things on my own, but the difference I'm trying to explain is the difference between watching black and white tv show of the grand canyon, and being there surrounded by the canyon, seeing it smelling the air, hearing all the little subttal things you would miss.

Saying I fear being without God is the same as saying I fear returning home to my black and white TV. It is foolishness because I no sooner fear returning to my life from a vacation. why? because I am still me and especially after this experience I know I can still experience contentment whether or not I get to experience things like the grand can again or not.
-But, here's the thing..

It's my choice whether or not I return to my black and white TV or If I get to spend the rest of my life experiencing love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. on the level I currently do or not.

For me I simply do not want to live a live devoid of what God has shown me because He has ALWAYS given the things that are Best for me even if I would not choose them at first for myself. Never (in this last 20+ years) once have I looked back and said, man i wish I this would have worked out my way.

Can you imagine coming out better in the end in every single instance that what you had planned for yourself? So why then spend a life time trying to figure out what is best when you can literally spend a life doing what you were designed to do.

Going back and reading through all these responses, I think IF there is to be any motivation for continuing to believe, I do think Thena got it right that it would be hope. It definitely is not and should NOT be any sort of sole reason for anyone to believe anything... there should still be real points to back up and support any belief. But I can see hope as being a complimentary force that keeps a person believing.

I have a few reasons why I believe what I do and I think I have touched on them a couple of times here before.

For starters, I really do think it is logical to believe there is some sort of supernatural force out there that started all this. Things in the natural world all have a beginning... they all came from/formed from somewhere/something. Nothing in the natural world just magically forms itself from nothing at all, neither can we say it has always existed. Both of those are contrary to the laws of nature as we know them. This supports my idea that whatever it was that has always existed and caused other thing to exist, is of a supernatural force, aka - above nature as we know it. This isn't something I choose to believe. It really does make more sense to me that way.

Of course, none of this is to say that such supernatural force was the Christian God. That specific belief of mine comes from other points. History be one of them. Like the crazy fast spread of early Christianity before we had good transportation, telephones, etc. The lives of the saints serve as witness to me as well, and all the extraordinary things surrounding them and what they did and what happened to them. The many accounts of miracles, particularly the one in Fatima which I find pretty convincing. The fact that we all seem to have some sort of basic, objective, universal moral code about what is good and what is bad.

And to seal the deal (and I have talked about this before), the miracle I experienced with my own senses 10 years ago. Definitely a supernatural occurrence, and one that very much and specifically pointed towards Christianity.

Of course, none of this is any sort of concrete evidence that can be proven in a lab or mathematically, etc. That's where the hope comes in. I can't prove to you concretely or to myself that any of this is true. I can only add up reasons which to me, make it a good possibility that it is all true, and believe and hope that it really is. In the same way, I can't show concrete proof and evidence to anyone that my husband loves me, and there are plenty of people out there who don't believe in that type of life long marital love between 2 people. But I have many things that point to him loving me as being a real possibility, and so I believe and I hope that he does.

Likewise, at the end of the day, us religious folks are people of hope.

I hope that helps shed some light.

Rarely does it come out well when a Christian attempts sell the reasons he's come up with to justify his own beliefs as reasons others should adopt them too. That is certainly true of this mess you've written, drich.

(September 21, 2016 at 11:21 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: In the same way, I can't show concrete proof and evidence to anyone that my husband loves me, and there are plenty of people out there who don't believe in that type of life long marital love between 2 people. But I have many things that point to him loving me as being a real possibility, and so I believe and I hope that he does.

No problem with that.  

(September 21, 2016 at 11:21 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Likewise, at the end of the day, us religious folks are people of hope.

Of course by that standard, as you point out in the example I quoted, so are a lot of non-believers. We just don't hope for un-natural mechanisms as explanations for observed phenomena or an ever-ever land afterlife.

(September 20, 2016 at 11:13 pm)Thena323 Wrote:

(September 20, 2016 at 10:45 pm)RobertE Wrote: bold is mine.

Then you should be looking at Islam then. Christianity is losing its battle to keep believers whilst Islam is acquiring.

What part of the word anyone do you not understand?
Anyone of any faith, or lack thereof, seeking to rid the entire world of beliefs other their own.

Including YOU.

So, are you going answer the question I asked you in the previous post, or not?

I asked you a question first remember, why are you an atheist? Or has that slipped your mind? To answer your question, what could I do apart from ignore those who follow religion. At the end of the day, it is their choice to believe something that is unbelievable, and it is not our job to try and convince others to change their minds just because they don't see things the way we do. Either way, get rid of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, and people will be able to think more clearly, and this can only be achieved if people in other countries had access to material that could convince them otherwise. As I said, you ask any muslim and he will tell you that Islam is the fasting growing religion in the world now, but perhaps with social media, they might just land on something that will make them think outside of the box, otherwise, they will stay as they are; neo-nazis with beards and KKK uniforms.

(September 21, 2016 at 11:21 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Going back and reading through all these responses, I think IF there is to be any motivation for continuing to believe, I do think Thena got it right that it would be hope. It definitely is not and should NOT be any sort of sole reason for anyone to believe anything... there should still be real points to back up and support any belief. But I can see hope as being a complimentary force that keeps a person believing.

I have a few reasons why I believe what I do and I think I have touched on them a couple of times here before.

For starters, I really do think it is logical to believe there is some sort of supernatural force out there that started all this. Things in the natural world all have a beginning... they all came from/formed from somewhere/something. Nothing in the natural world just magically forms itself from nothing at all, neither can we say it has always existed. Both of those are contrary to the laws of nature as we know them. This supports my idea that whatever it was that has always existed and caused other thing to exist, is of a supernatural force, aka - above nature as we know it. This isn't something I choose to believe. It really does make more sense to me that way.

Of course, none of this is to say that such supernatural force was the Christian God. That specific belief of mine comes from other points. History be one of them. Like the crazy fast spread of early Christianity before we had good transportation, telephones, etc. The lives of the saints serve as witness to me as well, and all the extraordinary things surrounding them and what they did and what happened to them. The many accounts of miracles, particularly the one in Fatima which I find pretty convincing. The fact that we all seem to have some sort of basic, objective, universal moral code about what is good and what is bad.

And to seal the deal (and I have talked about this before), the miracle I experienced with my own senses 10 years ago. Definitely a supernatural occurrence, and one that very much and specifically pointed towards Christianity.      

Of course, none of this is any sort of concrete evidence that can be proven in a lab or mathematically, etc. That's where the hope comes in. I can't prove to you concretely or to myself that any of this is true. I can only add up reasons which to me, make it a good possibility that it is all true, and believe and hope that it really is. In the same way, I can't show concrete proof and evidence to anyone that my husband loves me, and there are plenty of people out there who don't believe in that type of life long marital love between 2 people. But I have many things that point to him loving me as being a real possibility, and so I believe and I hope that he does.    

Likewise, at the end of the day, us religious folks are people of hope.

I hope that helps shed some light.

I prayed that my epilepsy would go away, and God didn't answer. I prayed for the cluster headaches to go away, guess what, God didn't answer. So, for me, there is NO higher power, whatever people might think. Churches, especially Catholic churches found a way of teaching bollocks to lemmings and fleece them out of their money. So, if an con man goes to your door, would you want to see his credentials or not to see if he is real? I would certainly hope so, and so should you when you go to see a priest who tries to con little old ladies out of their last pound note, keeping their believers poor and making the pope rich in the process.

(September 21, 2016 at 10:04 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(September 21, 2016 at 10:01 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ^Right on.

The trouble is, none of you can explain what it is that you gain out of that bargain in any concrete terms. It's all just vague deepities or appeals to how believing makes one feel, which isn't exactly a good reason to believe a thing.

You don't have an explanation because I can ever remember you asking for one.

love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Are the fruits of the Spirit everyone shares. These attributes are indeed present in everyone, but again as i said in the above post, they have been turned up to a much larger measure than we can experience on our own.

Spiritual 'Fruit' are experienced by everyone who has obtain a measure of the Holy Spirit.

Next (if we use this fruit to serve God faithfully) Comes Spiritual gifts. These vary. In all seriousness and without boasting I feel like I can ask God anything and get an answer. from Religious/Spiritual things to practical business related things, to help figuring out technical stuff.

Example I was working on my sister's suv It was an isuzu or something like that. dual over head cam on a v-6. I was putting on a timming belt and I loosened the tensioner and the cams went in two different direction finding a natural spot where the least amount of pressure from the valves made the cam settle. So I changed everything I was supposed to, and went to re-time/clock the cams but could not find the factory reference markes on the timming cover or the cams. So i looked this up on line (as I don't normally like to get this deep in an engine.) Then I found out that the first 1000 SUV off the assembly line her model year were shipped without any timming marks. The fix? to replace all the timing components with ones marked. (which is just short of a complete engine rebuild.) So I asked God to help, and I sat there for a min, and look at the 4 cams and I literally saw the cams slowly move (not hooked up to anything) The first one move something like 3 clicks/teeth clock wise, the second 1 tooth counter the next 5 clicks counter and the next 2 clock wise. then I saw them move back to where the cams were orginally position. So I quickly wrote all of this down as It take some effort to move these cams. So I positioned them as I saw and retensioned the belt...

So what is the difference between a delusion and a vision?
Content, and accuracy.

I put the rest of the truck back together, and started it. with out pause hesitation spit or sputter it fired up. Checked the timing it was spot on.

I think for most people, you don't understand how critical valve timing is to an engine being a single tooth off on one cam could indeed destroy a whole engine. I set 4 cams based on only what I saw... I know this story is dismissable to anyone with the will to do so. But, if you have ever had the desire to ever know the truth. Imagine experiencing something like this for yourself. Then as you begin to trust and follow what you have been shown stuff like this keeps happening on a larger and larger scale. Till you get to a point where stuff like this happens everyday. Imagine if this kind of stuff happened to you on the scale I am talking about daily when you stayed the course, how strong your belief (not faith) would be.. Despite what other say or think.

So what do I get out of a relationship with God? First and foremost I know God is real and is watching out for me no matter how dark things get. I been given a large measure of 'Spiritual fruit,' and strong Spiritual Gifts. My prayers are directly answered. My petitions Get answered in such a way as I seldom ask for anything for me. Don't get me wrong, I like Paul has been given 'thorns in the flesh.' But I've also been given the ablity to see what and why/how these thorns benfit me. And because of that I accept them even at times welcome them when they save me from sin. As a result i rarly pray for specific things but i pray for "the process" I have seen be shown in other people's lives. As a result I have found contentment. Because i found contentment in what God has given me he has given much much more than I ever wanted or expected for myself to be a steward over.

Does this mean everyone is slated for the Drich path to Belief? For your sake i hope not. But eitherway Whatever God does for you will be Exactly what you need, when you need it and nothing more. More will be given only if you proove faithful to God.

(September 21, 2016 at 12:05 pm)RobertE Wrote:

(September 21, 2016 at 11:21 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Going back and reading through all these responses, I think IF there is to be any motivation for continuing to believe, I do think Thena got it right that it would be hope. It definitely is not and should NOT be any sort of sole reason for anyone to believe anything... there should still be real points to back up and support any belief. But I can see hope as being a complimentary force that keeps a person believing.

I have a few reasons why I believe what I do and I think I have touched on them a couple of times here before.

For starters, I really do think it is logical to believe there is some sort of supernatural force out there that started all this. Things in the natural world all have a beginning... they all came from/formed from somewhere/something. Nothing in the natural world just magically forms itself from nothing at all, neither can we say it has always existed. Both of those are contrary to the laws of nature as we know them. This supports my idea that whatever it was that has always existed and caused other thing to exist, is of a supernatural force, aka - above nature as we know it. This isn't something I choose to believe. It really does make more sense to me that way.

Of course, none of this is to say that such supernatural force was the Christian God. That specific belief of mine comes from other points. History be one of them. Like the crazy fast spread of early Christianity before we had good transportation, telephones, etc. The lives of the saints serve as witness to me as well, and all the extraordinary things surrounding them and what they did and what happened to them. The many accounts of miracles, particularly the one in Fatima which I find pretty convincing. The fact that we all seem to have some sort of basic, objective, universal moral code about what is good and what is bad.

And to seal the deal (and I have talked about this before), the miracle I experienced with my own senses 10 years ago. Definitely a supernatural occurrence, and one that very much and specifically pointed towards Christianity.      

Of course, none of this is any sort of concrete evidence that can be proven in a lab or mathematically, etc. That's where the hope comes in. I can't prove to you concretely or to myself that any of this is true. I can only add up reasons which to me, make it a good possibility that it is all true, and believe and hope that it really is. In the same way, I can't show concrete proof and evidence to anyone that my husband loves me, and there are plenty of people out there who don't believe in that type of life long marital love between 2 people. But I have many things that point to him loving me as being a real possibility, and so I believe and I hope that he does.    

Likewise, at the end of the day, us religious folks are people of hope.

I hope that helps shed some light.

I prayed that my epilepsy would go away, and God didn't answer. I prayed for the cluster headaches to go away, guess what, God didn't answer. So, for me, there is NO higher power, whatever people might think. Churches, especially Catholic churches found a way of teaching bollocks to lemmings and fleece them out of their money. So, if an con man goes to your door, would you want to see his credentials or not to see if he is real? I would certainly hope so, and so should you when you go to see a priest who tries to con little old ladies out of their last pound note, keeping their believers poor and making the pope rich in the process.

Actually:
You petitioned that my epilepsy would go away, and God answered.

You petitioned for the cluster headaches to go away, guess what, God did answer.

So, for you, Because you did not like the answer God gave, there is NO higher power, whatever people might think.


There fixed it so it read factually correct.